Is it necessary to get annual reg service?

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Nice story about Disney, too bad it has absolutely nothing to do scuba.

How about a story about a dive shop getting sued for giving "unauthorized" advice?

If poor advice was a litigation-worthy offense, there would be some big trouble at an LDS around here....

Yeah, I admit that the specifics of the illustration are not directly related to the topic at hand, but the principle is very relevant. The point that I was making was that everyone has to be much more careful to avoid being sued in a culture that rewards people for bringing frivolous lawsuits to bear.

Just because a shop hasn't been sued for this before (and I don't know if one has or not) does not mean that they will never have to deal with it; sadly, it's only a matter of time before the "the coffee was too hot" mentality catches up with the scuba world.
 
Most folks misunderstand what the McDonalds' hot coffee lawsuit was all about and misuse it as a poster child for liability judgments run amok, which is, in fact, far from the truth.

There is a lot of hype about the McDonalds hot coffee lawsuit, especially by John Stossel at ABC News. No one is in favor of frivolous cases and outlandish results, however, it is important to understand some key points that were NOT reported in the stories about the case. McDonald's coffee was not only hot, it was scalding - capable of almost instantaneous destruction of skin, flesh and muscle. THEY KNEW IT AND DID NOTHING ABOUT IT!

Why does the media report only part of the story? Unfortunately, without the reader becoming emotional, the story is boring. In order to make it more interesting and increase their audience, the media looks to excite their readers or make them angry.

Here's the rest of the story, known by Stossel but not reported:

Stella Liebeck, of Albuquerque, New Mexico, was a passenger in a car when she was severely burned by McDonald's coffee in February 1992. Liebeck, 79 at the time, ordered coffee that was served in a styrofoam cup at the drive through window of a McDonald's. After receiving the order, the driver pulled his car forward and stopped so that Liebeck could add cream and sugar to her coffee. Critics of civil justice, often imply that Liebeck was driving the car or that the vehicle was in motion when she spilled the coffee, however, NEITHER IS TRUE. THE CAR WAS STOPPED when Liebeck placed the cup between her knees and attempted to remove the plastic lid from the cup. As she removed the lid, the entire contents of the cup spilled into her lap. This could have happened to any McDonald's customer who picked up at the drive in window and parked on the side.

The sweatpants Liebeck was wearing absorbed the coffee and held it next to her skin. A vascular surgeon determined that Liebeck suffered full thickness burns (third-degree burns) over 6 percent of her body, including her inner thighs, perineum, buttocks, genital and groin areas. She was hospitalized for eight days, during which time she underwent skin grafting. McDonalds refused to pay the 79-year-old woman's initial medical expenses totaling $11,000. McDonalds actually countered with an offer of $800. And they also refused to turn down the heat on their coffee. Left with $20,000 unpaid bills, Stella Liebeck, a Republican who had never filed a law suit in her life, finally hired a lawyer. Liebeck sought to settle her claim for only $20,000, but McDonald's refused. A mediator later recommended the parties settle for $225,000. Again, McDonald's refused and the case went to trial.

McDonald's representatives lied to the court and jury about the existence of other claims, but documents showing that they knew of more than 700 claims by people burned by its coffee between 1982 and 1992 were admitted in to evidence. Some claims involved third-degree burns substantially similar to Liebecks. This history documented McDonald's knowledge about the extent and nature of the intentionally created hazard. McDonald's even ignored a request from the Shriner's Burn Institute in Cincinnati to turn down the temperature of its coffee. McDonald's also said that based on a consultants advice, it held its coffee at between 180 and 190 degrees fahrenheit to maintain optimum taste. He admitted that he had not evaluated the safety ramifications at this temperature. Other establishments sell coffee at substantially lower temperatures, and coffee served at home is generally 135 to 140 degrees.

Incredibly, McDonald's quality assurance manager testified that the company actively enforced a requirement that coffee be held in the pot at 185 degrees, plus or minus five degrees. He also testified that a burn hazard exists with any food substance served at 140 degrees or above, and that McDonald's coffee, at the temperature at which it was poured into styrofoam cups, was not fit for consumption because it would burn the mouth and throat. The quality assurance manager admitted that burns would occur, but testified that McDonald's had no intention of reducing the "holding temperature" of its coffee. McDonald's also claimed that customers buy coffee on their way to work or home, intending to consume it there, however, the company’s own research showed that customers intend to consume the coffee immediately while driving. McDonald's also argued that consumers known coffee is hot and that its customers want it that way. The company admitted its customers were unaware that they could suffer third degree burns from the coffee and that a statement on the side of the cup was not a "warning" but a "reminder" since the location of the writing would not warn customers of the hazard.

Plaintiff's expert, a scholar in thermodynamics applied to human skin burns, testified that liquids, at 180 degrees, will cause a full thickness (third-degree burns) burn to human skin in two to seven seconds. Other testimony showed that as the temperature decreases toward 155 degrees, the extent of the burn relative to that temperature decreases exponentially. Thus, if Liebeck's spill had involved coffee at 155 degrees, the liquid would have cooled and given her time to avoid a serious burn.

The jury awarded Liebeck $200,000 in compensatory damages. The jury reduced this amount to $160,000 because they found Liebeck 20 percent at fault for spilling the coffee (not because she was driving a car). The jury also awarded Liebeck $2.7 million in punitive damages, which equals about two days of McDonald's coffee sales. The trial court subsequently reduced the punitive award to $480,000, even though the judge called McDonald's conduct reckless, callous and willful. No one will ever know the final ending to this case. The parties eventually entered into a secret settlement which has never been revealed to the public, despite the fact that this was a public case, litigated in public and subjected to extensive media reporting. Such secret settlements, after public trials, should not be permitted.

After the trial and verdict, it was found that the temperature of coffee at the local Albuquerque McDonald's had dropped to a relatively safe 158 degrees Fahrenheit. This proves that law suits are the only effective mechanism which force companies to produce safe products. Additionally, the real story shows that the court system works. The jury reduced the verdict for the percentage of negligence attributable to the plaintiff. The jury felt that McDonald's actions were so disgusting and heinous that they awarded $2.7 million in punitive damages to punish McDonald's in an effort to stop this kind of callousness. The judge felt that this was too much and reduced McDonald's punishment to only $480,000. Reductions of jury awards is a very little know fact. Judges have the power to reduce a jury award and they do, frequently. Judges reduce awards whenever they feel the jury awarded too much, however, the media never, never reports the reduced awards. They only report the original verdict because, after all, $480,000 punitive award to McDonald's burn victim doesn't sell as well as $2.7 million punitive award to McDonald's burn victim! This is misleading hype journalism, of which John Stossel is also guilty.

John Stossel and most other reporters frequently rerun the McDonald's Coffee Case story but have never reported the fact that: 1) Liebeck was a passenger; 2) the Liebeck car was not moving, but was stopped; and 3) the verdict was substantially reduced. Although John Stossel produced a story on ABC News called "HYPE" in which he accused reporters of creating hype to get attention, he neglected to report on how he hyped the McDonald's Coffee Case story!
 
We have an atomic b2 (actually a friends)that's due for it's second year complete breakdown service. The lds is quoting me 150$...

Damn, my LDS charged me $90 to service my Atomic reg and I thought THAT was expensive. $150 is DEFINITELY a rip-off. Go somewhere else. And if you want my personal, unqualified opinion as an Atomic owner, I would NOT have mine serviced after two years with only 20 dives. I think I had mine serviced for the first time after about 2 and a half years and about 100 dives.
 
Accurate or not the term "the coffee was too hot" has entered the English lexicon as a phrase used to describe a frivolous lawsuit, but in the interest of fairness here are a couple of other examples:

A family was sued after a neighborhood child injured himself on their backyard trampoline. The trampoline was behind two locked fences that the child had scaled to reach it.

A man was found negligent after a burglar, who was attempting to break into his home via the roof, slipped and fell off of the roof injuring himself.

I could dig up some more examples, but these should suffice to support my point.
 
I just hate to see that right wing idealogue Stossel being permitted to set the agenda with his lies unrevealed. I do not know those other cases, references please?
 
With all these law suits, you'd think someone could find a suit against ANY LDS based on something the LDS advised a customer. Could it be that there are none?? :coffee:
 
I can't see what your problem with the trampoline suit is.

The buglar, like the trampoline case is a suit, not a judgement. But it follows rather well established law, if you shoot someone you need to be clearly in danger. Shooting a burglar in the back will almost inevitably get you in trouble, civil and often criminal. We have a case here were a guy stole someone's medical marajuana plants (outdoors) and was shot in the back running away. He's being tried for second degree murder, and if the deceased has any family, I'd guess they have some sort of a case.

But none of the items you cite are anything more tha suits that had beden brought, face it, anyone can sue anyone for anything, sometimes real ... sometimes stupid. But then "sometimes stupid" applies to much of human life. The current tort systems has it's problems, but what is the alternative? Greatly increased overndmental regulation of every facet of life? That's one thing that "tort refomers" never seem to be able to answer. I guess they'd rather put us at the whims of all those companies (and other entities) that have displayed such a marvelous abilty, and desire, to put the public good ahead of corporate profits and shareholder returns.
 
I believe that Atomic will service the regulators for $125 and that includes new parts (even new plastics to make it pretty again). At that price once every two years, it's just about the same as the typical annual services for other regulator brands.

And yes, Christolube filled regulators will cost more to service. Gotta clean the gunk out and refill it.
 
unfortunately anyone can sue anyone else for anything these days ... it looks like the trampoline case worked as the law intended: there was a summary judgment against the Plaintiffs, and that judgment was sustained by the appeals court. the Plaintiffs got nothing.

unfortunately, this does cost money ... that's the real downside ... it is fairly expensive to defend a suit like this ... depending on the jurisdiction, you could be talking up to $8 or $10 k

one thing that may discourage frivolous lawsuits is to allow defendants to recover attorneys fees if they win. there are some provisions right now that allow that, but they are limited.

just a thought
 

Back
Top Bottom