Is overweighting of OW students a violation of standards?

[Neilwood]

Not sure if it's already been said but I see this from an instructional standpoint. Teaching proper weighting takes a lot of time (let's forget for a moment that they should take the time to teach this) if a student is under weighted you risk two things, one them shooting to the surface halfway through the dive, and to them not being able to sink in the first place. If a student is overweight it there's a good chance we'll still be able to kick to the surface and you could always argue that they can just add more air to their BCD. Not saying that it's good practice or technique but as somebody who spends a lot of time teaching people various skills it would make teaching a lot easier.

Hopefully, with regards to PADI anyway, the revised standards and the "preference" for neutral buoyancy should push more instructors towards weighting properly instead of to do skills on the bottom (overweighting almost being a requirement for that).

As you suggest overweighting is (slightly) more preferential than underweighting in that you can increase the buoyancy underwater by use of the BCD but if you struggle to get down in the first place it is more of an issue.

 

[Pinecube]

Not sure if it's already been said but I see this from an instructional standpoint.Teaching proper weighting takes a lot of time

From a student's standpoint; isn't that what I'm paying for?

It will certainly take time but I don't think it should necessarily take 'a lot'. Even if it does take more time, the student should be able to show that they can do a proper weight check instead of relying on ballpark numbers from the PADI manual.

but as somebody who spends a lot of time teaching people various skills it would make teaching a lot easier.

Easier on the instructor, harder on the student once they've left the class.

I don't see a couple pounds being too bad in the grand scheme of things, but it's hard to get the point of neutral bouyancy (or bouyancy itself for that matter) across if the instructor is adding weight in order to plant you on the bottom of the pool.

 

[Steve_C]

Fin PIvot:

This is something to do during pool sessions or on a training platform. I found it a good way to start learning proper breathing for buoyancy control. It was never presented as something to do during a real dive. Same for a lot of drills. Would not take off my bcd and lay it on a reef either but there are drills taking BCD on and off. Wouldn't swim underwater holding my breath on a normal dive either.

 

[Texanguy]

From a student's standpoint; isn't that what I'm paying for?

It will certainly take time but I don't think it should necessarily take 'a lot'. Even if it does take more time, the student should be able to show that they can do a proper weight check instead of relying on ballpark numbers from the PADI manual.


Easier on the instructor, harder on the student once they've left the class.

I don't see a couple pounds being too bad in the grand scheme of things, but it's hard to get the point of neutral bouyancy (or bouyancy itself for that matter) across if the instructor is adding weight in order to plant you on the bottom of the pool.

I definitely don't agree with this way of teaching. I think they should take the time to teach this. I don't even think peak performance buoyancy you should be at a class because students should be good out of open water. But let's be honest most open water classes are rushed. There is the other issue of everyone requiring different amounts of work to get to a certain point. I was able to attain neutral buoyancy quite easily after a very short amount of time. While the others in the class had quite a bit harder of a time. So now the one guy has taken you an hour to teach. The other guy I'll take you half a day but yet now you have to charge them both the same price. I don't agree with this type of teaching I don't condone it. But I understand it from the perspective of an agency who tries to certified as many people as possible in a short amount of time. Even if it doesn't take that much time. If you apply this logic to a lot of other things in the class. There will be a lot less people diving simply because the amount of time it would take to teach. You could also argue that there's a lot of people that dive of that shouldn't that's an entirely different topic.

 

[Hawkwood]

It will certainly take time but I don't think it should necessarily take 'a lot'. Even if it does take more time, the student should be able to show that they can do a proper weight check instead of relying on ballpark numbers from the PADI manual.

In PADI's OW class, after Confined Water Dive 1, students are to do a proper weight check as a part of each dive, including the OW Dives. That makes at least 8 weight checks over the course of it. They are to learn how to do it.

 

[boulderjohn]

Not sure if it's already been said but I see this from an instructional standpoint. Teaching proper weighting takes a lot of time

Teaching proper weighting does not take any extra time at all. In my experience, students perform better while properly weighted and thus learn faster. That means it takes less time.

Fin PIvot:

This is something to do during pool sessions or on a training platform. I found it a good way to start learning proper breathing for buoyancy control. It was never presented as something to do during a real dive. Same for a lot of drills. Would not take off my bcd and lay it on a reef either but there are drills taking BCD on and off. Wouldn't swim underwater holding my breath on a normal dive either.

PADI eliminated the fin pivot as an instructional tool years ago, and they did it precisely because people lost sight of its purpose. It was supposed to teach students that when they breathe in, they go up, and when the breathe out, they go down. That was it. When they realized instructors were obsessing over the precise form of the fin pivot, making students execute it perfectly, they decided it had to go. Instructors were taking an ungodly amount of time teaching a skill that had no purpose whatsoever and should never be used after the class was over.

 

[Steve_C]

It was supposed to teach students that when they breathe in, they go up, and when the breathe out, they go down. That was it.

Actually that is not what I learned. I already knew that from physics 101. What I learned was that it was like skiing where you prejump the moguls. I learned that as I started to rise I should begin exhaling and as I start to sink I should be inhaling. That combined with the delay in the control (if you are going up it takes a while for the exhaling to stop the ascent and start you down so you need to start the exhale as soon as you start up). Maybe it was just how I am wired but I found it very helpful in getting the timing right. My instructor made it clear it was just for learning some timing and he did not obsess. There were lots of other things we did in OW like tables and different scenarios. It was a 1 on 1 class. I ask lots of questions. He was a tech instructor with lots of answers. I came out with decent trim and buoyancy (for a fresh OW student). But then when we came in from a dive in the quarry the goal was to stay off the bottom and below the surface as shallow as you could moving slowly. We would do this all the way down to 3 ft.

 

[TMHeimer]

Some of our instructors still use the fin pivot as a means of getting the students close enough to "perfectly" neutral so they can ascend a bit into the hover. Of course I have found that you can easily get into a hover without the fin pivot. With my shell collecting I'm usually a foot or two off the bottom--I like to hover there and see how close I can hover to either the bottom or the surface. An instructor a while back did mention what Steve_C said about the delay with inhaling & exhaling and I do that quite a bit. Haven't heard very many instructors mention it. Something I like to throw out at times is that due to breathing a tank down, you're never really perfectly neutral no matter how well you're weighted and what you do. Using lungs compensates for these little differences.

 

[Pinecube]

I definitely don't agree with this way of teaching. I think they should take the time to teach this. I don't even think peak performance buoyancy you should be at a class because students should be good out of open water. But let's be honest most open water classes are rushed. There is the other issue of everyone requiring different amounts of work to get to a certain point. I was able to attain neutral buoyancy quite easily after a very short amount of time. While the others in the class had quite a bit harder of a time. So now the one guy has taken you an hour to teach. The other guy I'll take you half a day but yet now you have to charge them both the same price. I don't agree with this type of teaching I don't condone it. But I understand it from the perspective of an agency who tries to certified as many people as possible in a short amount of time. Even if it doesn't take that much time. If you apply this logic to a lot of other things in the class. There will be a lot less people diving simply because the amount of time it would take to teach. You could also argue that there's a lot of people that dive of that shouldn't that's an entirely different topic.

Some good points, I would have happily paid a bit more for an extra pool dive that focused entirely on propulsion and bouyancy as part of the OW cert. Otherwise, I'm glad that in my OW class they had multiple instructors and DMs so that students having an issue with something didn't slow down the rest of the class.

PADI eliminated the fin pivot as an instructional tool years ago

We did it in my class in 2014, took up very little time but seemed kind of pointless since we did a proper 'hover' immediately afterwards.

 

[prophet98g]

How is it a standards violation? (padi I assume) -NO hook in that question I genuinely want to know. Is it the floating part or the not changing tanks part?

I am not absolutely sure about PADI but SSI specifically mentions equipment assembly and dis-assembly for each open water dive. You don't necessarily have to use a new tank but you do need to get them on shore/boat and have them break stuff down and reassemble. I have seen a few people have their students do multiple assembly/dis-assembly cycles to make up or allow for skipped ones. Seems like a relatively minor issue in the pool but seems to short change the students in open water.