love2godeep
Contributor
Oh! I was thinking of starting with the BC, then adding a reg later. The LDS told me that it would not be a problem to hook up a rental reg on site to the AIR2. Has something changed?
I'm confused for sure.
Is the air 2 a good octo?
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Oh! I was thinking of starting with the BC, then adding a reg later. The LDS told me that it would not be a problem to hook up a rental reg on site to the AIR2. Has something changed?
I'm confused for sure.
good stuff aquamaster! I agree. It's also good to see such vocal viewpoints on the issue, DetroitDiver.
Still diving my Air2and loving it.
Still diving my Air2and loving it.
DD.... I agree with you on the merits of practicing skills in water on a regular basis, if every body did it OOA emergencies would be practically a non-emergency. My expereince, at least in fairly murky water, has been that the inexperienced OOA diver is intensely focused on getting to the surface and that the difficult part of the OOA evolution is controlling the ascent and keeping it to a normal rate and making the saftey stop. In that case I like to be face to face with solid eye contact on the other diver. It also lets me vent their BC as needed as well as my own wing.
I will stand by the comment that hey are unlikely to stick. The inflate button is permanantly bonded to the inflator stem and will not separate as do will many cheaper inflators, which then allows the return spring to escape and results in a "stuck" inflator. (it's not really stuck in a mechanical sense but you usually can't get the stem back up with gloves on. The inflator assembly itelf is simple and balanced with very little that can go wrong. I understand the concern and agree with the concept of eliminating failure points, but I am amazed at the number of people I see with expensive regs and BC's/Wings and a cheap generic inflator that is far more likely to fail. Maybe that is the reason for all the focus on failed inflators?
I have also dove it extensively in cold water (down to 35 degrees, and normally in the 40 to 55 degree range) and never had a problem other then a frozen air 2 due to using it well outside its design parameters by filling lift bags in cold water.
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MikeS.... I agree completely with the idea of staying on the bottom and returning to the ascent line air permitting (and with proper planning, it will always permit) but again if you are diving with a novice in this situation it most likely is not going to happen A ready to panic diver will often panic if you are going anywhere but up.
In terms of swimming along the bottom using an Air 2 is not really an issue as long as the second stage hose you donate is long enough to allow a more or less normal swim. And I agree a 5' or 7' hose is nice to have in that situation, but not 100% required. But again this is unlikely to happen with the average rec diver who demonstrates the level of proficency required to run out of air in the first place.
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gedunk... Sorry your Air 2 was a POS. I have used the same one for the last 4 years with only normal annual service and it has never so much as hiccupped an unwanted bubble of air. It has been 100% reliable.
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love2godeep....I have not had a problem dumping while breathing from an Air 2 but then I practice now and then and to be honest it is something you should practice to the point of having it be automatic. Also with a Scubapro BC, you have a dump on the right shoulder and do not need to dump through the Air 2. On most other BC's you can dump by pulling on the inflator hose to dump through the base of the hose assembly on the left shoulder. Assuming proper cable lenght in the inflator hose, you can still do this with the Air 2 in your mouth so again there is no need to dump air through the Air 2.
In one sense having the inflator in your mouth on ascent can be an asset as if you are having to manage both your bouyancy and your buddies it does avoid confusion to know exactly where your inflator/deflator is at.
Some of the problems that are attributed to the Air 2, (restricted range of movement with the Air 2 in your mouth etc) are not due to the Air 2 but rather to an inflator hose that is too short on Many SP BC's. A longer hose eliminates many of the concerns expressed about Air 2 use.
I will stand by the comment that hey are unlikely to stick. The inflate button is permanantly bonded to the inflator stem and will not separate as do will many cheaper inflators, which then allows the return spring to escape and results in a "stuck" inflator. (it's not really stuck in a mechanical sense but you usually can't get the stem back up with gloves on. The inflator assembly itelf is simple and balanced with very little that can go wrong. I understand the concern and agree with the concept of eliminating failure points, but I am amazed at the number of people I see with expensive regs and BC's/Wings and a cheap generic inflator that is far more likely to fail. Maybe that is the reason for all the focus on failed inflators?
I have also dove it extensively in cold water (down to 35 degrees, and normally in the 40 to 55 degree range) and never had a problem other then a frozen air 2 due to using it well outside its design parameters by filling lift bags in cold water.
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MikeS.... I agree completely with the idea of staying on the bottom and returning to the ascent line air permitting (and with proper planning, it will always permit) but again if you are diving with a novice in this situation it most likely is not going to happen A ready to panic diver will often panic if you are going anywhere but up.
In terms of swimming along the bottom using an Air 2 is not really an issue as long as the second stage hose you donate is long enough to allow a more or less normal swim. And I agree a 5' or 7' hose is nice to have in that situation, but not 100% required. But again this is unlikely to happen with the average rec diver who demonstrates the level of proficency required to run out of air in the first place.
--------
gedunk... Sorry your Air 2 was a POS. I have used the same one for the last 4 years with only normal annual service and it has never so much as hiccupped an unwanted bubble of air. It has been 100% reliable.
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love2godeep....I have not had a problem dumping while breathing from an Air 2 but then I practice now and then and to be honest it is something you should practice to the point of having it be automatic. Also with a Scubapro BC, you have a dump on the right shoulder and do not need to dump through the Air 2. On most other BC's you can dump by pulling on the inflator hose to dump through the base of the hose assembly on the left shoulder. Assuming proper cable lenght in the inflator hose, you can still do this with the Air 2 in your mouth so again there is no need to dump air through the Air 2.
In one sense having the inflator in your mouth on ascent can be an asset as if you are having to manage both your bouyancy and your buddies it does avoid confusion to know exactly where your inflator/deflator is at.
Some of the problems that are attributed to the Air 2, (restricted range of movement with the Air 2 in your mouth etc) are not due to the Air 2 but rather to an inflator hose that is too short on Many SP BC's. A longer hose eliminates many of the concerns expressed about Air 2 use.
detroit diver
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Is the AIR2 also a rental? If so, they should be mated at the shop you rent from.
Otherwise, I believe that the hose size is different from a standard hose size. I'm sure DAQ can speak to this as he owns one. I'd hate to have to be a mechanic and change out hoses every time I rented a reg set. It's not a big deal, but some folks just don't want to deal with it.
Hey DetroitDiver,
Can't help but notice how vocal you are about the Air2. No issues there, we all have our opinions.
By default, in your last posts, you portray yourself as an experienced diver. By what you say, you are at least a diver who could, if so desired be an instructor candidate, if qualified. (Can't read your profile from here).
How do you believe that an Air2 needs a different size hose? You said you believe it. From what information do you believe this information to be true???
I am truly sorry to hear that an experienced diver such as yourself (an opinion of mine based on your posts, feel free to correct me...) feels it unnecessary to be a 'SCUBA Mechanic'. I find it useful to be able to do all sorts of slight mechanical jobs on a boat from changing batteries to replacing fin straps to sealing a mask that leaks.
I also believe that someone who is currently renting gear, need not be worried about being a mechanic with SCUBA gear. Once that person purchases their own gear, there will be no need to worry about hose size, will there? Unless they decide to purchase a piece of equipment that might need a different size hose.
To put an end to this, I believe your last post to be nothing more than an inflammatory way to notify the less knowledgeable of your way of thinking.
When you can tell me why you BELIEVED an AIR2 needs a different size hose at the time of your posting your last message, I'll take what you say a lot more seriously and professionally, until then, I think you are full of hot air.
BTW, I have no idea if an Air2 needs a different size hose, and I own one. No need for me to know. Works just fine at any depth I've been to.
Colin Berry
Can't help but notice how vocal you are about the Air2. No issues there, we all have our opinions.
By default, in your last posts, you portray yourself as an experienced diver. By what you say, you are at least a diver who could, if so desired be an instructor candidate, if qualified. (Can't read your profile from here).
How do you believe that an Air2 needs a different size hose? You said you believe it. From what information do you believe this information to be true???
I am truly sorry to hear that an experienced diver such as yourself (an opinion of mine based on your posts, feel free to correct me...) feels it unnecessary to be a 'SCUBA Mechanic'. I find it useful to be able to do all sorts of slight mechanical jobs on a boat from changing batteries to replacing fin straps to sealing a mask that leaks.
I also believe that someone who is currently renting gear, need not be worried about being a mechanic with SCUBA gear. Once that person purchases their own gear, there will be no need to worry about hose size, will there? Unless they decide to purchase a piece of equipment that might need a different size hose.
To put an end to this, I believe your last post to be nothing more than an inflammatory way to notify the less knowledgeable of your way of thinking.
When you can tell me why you BELIEVED an AIR2 needs a different size hose at the time of your posting your last message, I'll take what you say a lot more seriously and professionally, until then, I think you are full of hot air.
BTW, I have no idea if an Air2 needs a different size hose, and I own one. No need for me to know. Works just fine at any depth I've been to.
Colin Berry
klausbh
Contributor
I dive a 5' primary and an AIR-2 backup. I was/am trained to use it and practice OOA with it.
Advantages
- The streamlining can't be beat.
- There is one less failure point (inflator hose) than two second stages plus inflator.
Disadvantages
- The corrugated hose limits your movement (head rotation) when breathing an AIR-2.
- I wind up wasting time on scubaboard defending the AIR-2 against people who think it is unsafe.
Notes
- The regulator half of an AIR-2 is identical to the R190 and R380. All three are good entry level regulators.
- The balanced inflator half of the AIR-2 is excellent.
- I remove the AIR-2 from my mouth to dump air. Anyone with trouble removing and replacing regulators needs more training.
- If my AIR-2 should freeflow (it never has) I can either breathe the freeflow, or disconnect it.
- If either the inflator or regulator half fails I call the dive.
- In addition to my primary and AIR-2 I have my buddies primary and backup for 4-fold redundancy. Quadruple failure seems less likely than a heart attack or shark attack.
- Don't dive with unsafe divers.
Questions
-Is it true that a properly bungeed backup is loose enough to be reachable without hands, yet tight enough to keep it in your mouth if you pass out? The no-hands thing, while cool, seems pretty irrelevant - drop whatever you are doing and deal with the emergency. The keep-in-the-reg function, however, might qualify as a third AIR-2 disadvantage after further consideration. Has anyone witnessed this coming in handy?
-Klaus
Advantages
- The streamlining can't be beat.
- There is one less failure point (inflator hose) than two second stages plus inflator.
Disadvantages
- The corrugated hose limits your movement (head rotation) when breathing an AIR-2.
- I wind up wasting time on scubaboard defending the AIR-2 against people who think it is unsafe.
Notes
- The regulator half of an AIR-2 is identical to the R190 and R380. All three are good entry level regulators.
- The balanced inflator half of the AIR-2 is excellent.
- I remove the AIR-2 from my mouth to dump air. Anyone with trouble removing and replacing regulators needs more training.
- If my AIR-2 should freeflow (it never has) I can either breathe the freeflow, or disconnect it.
- If either the inflator or regulator half fails I call the dive.
- In addition to my primary and AIR-2 I have my buddies primary and backup for 4-fold redundancy. Quadruple failure seems less likely than a heart attack or shark attack.
- Don't dive with unsafe divers.
Questions
-Is it true that a properly bungeed backup is loose enough to be reachable without hands, yet tight enough to keep it in your mouth if you pass out? The no-hands thing, while cool, seems pretty irrelevant - drop whatever you are doing and deal with the emergency. The keep-in-the-reg function, however, might qualify as a third AIR-2 disadvantage after further consideration. Has anyone witnessed this coming in handy?
-Klaus
ew1usnr
Contributor
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The inflator hoses are the same size, but the quick disconnect fittings on the hoses are different sizes.
The rental regulator will most likely have a standard inflator hose. The standard inflator hose fits a standard inflator. You will have to unscrew that hose and replace it with the special hose that connects to the Air2. You will have to do that each time you rent a regulator, and you will have to put the original hose back on the rental regulator afterwards. You can do it, but it is an annoyance. If you have a standard inflator on your BC then you don't have to worry about it.
klausbh
Contributor
Or you can buy a little hose adapter gizmo. It fits between a standard fitting and the AIR-2. Both directions of adapters exist AIR-2 hose to standard inflator, and vice-versa.
-Klaus
-Klaus
I think the problem here is that the air2 is being discussed as an independant unit. Maybe these things need to be discussed in the context of the intire configuration including emergency procedures.
First off, I admit that most people who use an air2 will survive. In fact, most will never use it and could get by just as well with a single second stage.
If we assume that it's mechanically sound, I have one problem with it. You may have no problem with it and that's ok too.
If you always reach for the deflator with your left hand when you dump air on ascent your left hand will remember that. It'll become second nature and you won't have to think about it. When your busy and your mind is otherwise engaged, your left hand will still remember.
My experience with an air2 type device is limited. I had a divemaster that swore by them because it eliminated a hose. One day I asked if he had ever used it. He said no so I suggested that he practice with it. He did, every time we were in the pool which was often.
Wouldn't you know that a students husband who was diving with us ran low on gas. I got them to safety stop depth before they began sharing. They had three minutes holding onto a tree sharing air to plan their ascent. When we were satisfied with the safety stop and every one signaled that they were ready to ascend we went. They started slow and went faster and faster. I couldn;t help but notice my divemaster feeling around his left shoulder with his left hand for a device that he was chewing on.
I am convinced that regulators belong in your mouth (or staged where they are ready to go there) and inflators belong in your hand and never the twain shall meet. The last thing you need is a special procedure for ascending (which you do at least once on every dive) in an emergency. Shoulder dumps? Why? That's a whole other discussion. Or is it?
How many here have heard the terms coupling and cohesion? Cohesion is what were interested in here. Really it's not very different from the Seseme street thing "which one of these things don't go with the other?" Procedurally, putting air in or out of your bc has nothing to do with breathing so why combine the two? Even if you can survive wearing it, what purpose or advantage does it serve?
If we forget failure modes and mistakes in the heat of an emergency, what does it do for you? Get rid of a hose? To be sure if the hose is long and dangling or attached to a silly holder that always comes loose, it's a pain. If, however, the hose is short and the reg always hangs under your chin (right close to where you need it) there isn't much of a reason to want to get rid of it. It doesn't interfere with anything when you're not using it and it doesn't interfere with anything when you do use it. Buoyancy control is done as always. How can that be bad?
After all this time diving and teaching it makes ZERO sense to me at best and seems like a dangerous money making scheme at worst. More pretty toy gimics that have no real reason to exist. It reminds me of the late night infomercials selling all that wierd stuff that I can't imagine any one wanting. LOL
First off, I admit that most people who use an air2 will survive. In fact, most will never use it and could get by just as well with a single second stage.
If we assume that it's mechanically sound, I have one problem with it. You may have no problem with it and that's ok too.
If you always reach for the deflator with your left hand when you dump air on ascent your left hand will remember that. It'll become second nature and you won't have to think about it. When your busy and your mind is otherwise engaged, your left hand will still remember.
My experience with an air2 type device is limited. I had a divemaster that swore by them because it eliminated a hose. One day I asked if he had ever used it. He said no so I suggested that he practice with it. He did, every time we were in the pool which was often.
Wouldn't you know that a students husband who was diving with us ran low on gas. I got them to safety stop depth before they began sharing. They had three minutes holding onto a tree sharing air to plan their ascent. When we were satisfied with the safety stop and every one signaled that they were ready to ascend we went. They started slow and went faster and faster. I couldn;t help but notice my divemaster feeling around his left shoulder with his left hand for a device that he was chewing on.
I am convinced that regulators belong in your mouth (or staged where they are ready to go there) and inflators belong in your hand and never the twain shall meet. The last thing you need is a special procedure for ascending (which you do at least once on every dive) in an emergency. Shoulder dumps? Why? That's a whole other discussion. Or is it?
How many here have heard the terms coupling and cohesion? Cohesion is what were interested in here. Really it's not very different from the Seseme street thing "which one of these things don't go with the other?" Procedurally, putting air in or out of your bc has nothing to do with breathing so why combine the two? Even if you can survive wearing it, what purpose or advantage does it serve?
If we forget failure modes and mistakes in the heat of an emergency, what does it do for you? Get rid of a hose? To be sure if the hose is long and dangling or attached to a silly holder that always comes loose, it's a pain. If, however, the hose is short and the reg always hangs under your chin (right close to where you need it) there isn't much of a reason to want to get rid of it. It doesn't interfere with anything when you're not using it and it doesn't interfere with anything when you do use it. Buoyancy control is done as always. How can that be bad?
After all this time diving and teaching it makes ZERO sense to me at best and seems like a dangerous money making scheme at worst. More pretty toy gimics that have no real reason to exist. It reminds me of the late night infomercials selling all that wierd stuff that I can't imagine any one wanting. LOL
Forgot about the quick disconnect fittings. Yup, those are of different sizes.
Glad to hear that hoses are the same. I always thought that they were.
It's a moot point, in my opinion, as whatever piece, be it a an Air2 or an inflator comes equipped with the right sized connection.
It does require switching the hose though, but these are things that are planned and prepared for at the dive shop before the trip, not underwater, or on the boat! (and even on the boat, if you have the right hoses, anyone with a wrench can change a hose.)
And I'll reiterate...been through mud, muck, depth and clarity, and that Air2 of mine works as good as the R380 I wore as well. (Not one bit of an issue.) (Yup wore 'em both.) Berate me for my technique, at the time, but I doubt you can say anything about the Air2's reliability under any conditions.
(I do not wear three regs anymore.)
Has anyone dove with an Air2 under similar conditions?
DD, I'm talking from experience. Let's keep it that way. Leave your hypotheticals aside. Anything can be looked at hypothetically. Have you ever dove with an Air2? Unless you can say yes, your posts are purely hypothetical, unless you have documented proof.
Speak from experience and you'll be a more credible source regarding the Air2.
Glad to hear that hoses are the same. I always thought that they were.
It's a moot point, in my opinion, as whatever piece, be it a an Air2 or an inflator comes equipped with the right sized connection.
It does require switching the hose though, but these are things that are planned and prepared for at the dive shop before the trip, not underwater, or on the boat! (and even on the boat, if you have the right hoses, anyone with a wrench can change a hose.)
And I'll reiterate...been through mud, muck, depth and clarity, and that Air2 of mine works as good as the R380 I wore as well. (Not one bit of an issue.) (Yup wore 'em both.) Berate me for my technique, at the time, but I doubt you can say anything about the Air2's reliability under any conditions.
(I do not wear three regs anymore.)
Has anyone dove with an Air2 under similar conditions?
DD, I'm talking from experience. Let's keep it that way. Leave your hypotheticals aside. Anything can be looked at hypothetically. Have you ever dove with an Air2? Unless you can say yes, your posts are purely hypothetical, unless you have documented proof.
Speak from experience and you'll be a more credible source regarding the Air2.
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