Is the air 2 a good octo?

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Mike Ferrara,

Are you a DIR diver? I'm just curious.

I'm not slamming, so nobody get worked up. Just looking for information.

Colin Berry
 
Hi Mike,

I liked your post, respect your opinion, and strongly agree that we are talking about more than just a matter of equipment.

Here are a few of my thoughts in response to your post:

1. All else being equal, there is an advantage to having less pieces of gear. Combining a seperate watch and depth gauge to a single bottom timer is good. Combining a seperate line cutter and serrated blade to a single cutting instrument is good. You might not consider the tradeoffs of combining an inflator and a backup regulator worth it, but some do.

2. Muscle memory is a real phenomenon, and it can be important. So is brain memory. It all comes down to training. When your inflator is in your mouth it's not on your shoulder. I'm sure you will agree that there are more difficult things to learn about SCUBA than that.

3. That divemaster might have been overweighted. I rarely even touch my inflator above 20 ft, because my bladder is virtually empty by then. Or was he positively buoyant the entire safety stop, staying down by clinging to the line?

4. My procedure is to lift the inflator and dump. If I'm breathing from my AIR-2, that means taking it out of my mouth every now and then.

-Klaus

Shoulder dumps - hehehe - shoulder dumps - sigh.
 
Wonderfully stated Mike, I wish everyone would advocate as clearly and elegantly for their positions.

It is a very good point and underscores the need to practice OOA ascents with an Air 2 just due to the differences involved. Certainly something to consider.
 
detroit diver once bubbled...
Yeh, you've not only ended your dive, but you've possibly ended your life. Remember-you're buddy's OOA, panic'd, and has your primary. The only source of air is now in his/her mouth.

In this case, I'm already half way to the surface in a shared air ascent .... since I don't dive deep (100' is abnormally deep for me) and I don't dive in water below 80 degrees ... how is my AIR2 a bad idea ????


with regards to another quiestion...

Boyancy controll is not a problem with the AIR2 in your mouth ... it still works the same way, the buttons are now right in front of your nose.

And since this is MY rig, I AM familiar with it .... if the AIR2 is new to you, you should probably plan an easy dive or two to just go out and play with it.

That said, it would be a REALLY BAD idea for rental rigs :)


In any case, it's a viable piece of gear for the average rec diver.
 
klausbh once bubbled...
Or you can buy a little hose adapter gizmo. It fits between a standard fitting and the AIR-2. Both directions of adapters exist AIR-2 hose to standard inflator, and vice-versa. -Klaus

Hello, Klaus. This is the first I have heard of an adapter. Do they sell them through Scubapro shops, or are they from an aftermarket manufacturer? I'd like to get one of each adapter.

A drawback to them would be that the Air2 fitting has a bigger bore than a standard inflator connection. Adding an adapter to fit a standard connection would restrict the air flow to the Air2 to a small degree. I'd have to try it at depth and see if I could tell a difference.
 
coberry7 once bubbled...
Mike Ferrara,

Are you a DIR diver? I'm just curious.

I'm not slamming, so nobody get worked up. Just looking for information.

Colin Berry

Though I dive a "Hogarthian" configuration, I don't use the term DIR to describe my diving.

I was diving this same configuration before I knew what DIR was. I arrived at it the hard way and gathered a pretty good size pile of junk that I'll never use in the process. Of course the learning process continues.
 
klausbh once bubbled...
Hi Mike,

I liked your post, respect your opinion, and strongly agree that we are talking about more than just a matter of equipment.

Here are a few of my thoughts in response to your post:

1. All else being equal, there is an advantage to having less pieces of gear. Combining a seperate watch and depth gauge to a single bottom timer is good. Combining a seperate line cutter and serrated blade to a single cutting instrument is good. You might not consider the tradeoffs of combining an inflator and a backup regulator worth it, but some do.

Of course simplification can be good. We need to think about what we want to simplify though. If the goal is to simplify and mistake proof emergency procedures, an apparent equipment simplification may or my not productive. I your examples combining cutting tool types simplifies a procedure because you only need to reach for "the knife". The same is true for the combination of depth gauge and timer.
2. Muscle memory is a real phenomenon, and it can be important. So is brain memory. It all comes down to training. When your inflator is in your mouth it's not on your shoulder. I'm sure you will agree that there are more difficult things to learn about SCUBA than that.

I agree. We always need to be able to reason. However, I think that having less things to do that require reasoning in an emergency is good. In an OOA situation there could be lots of things that require your attention. Do we ascent directly or go back to the line? Navigation? Do we have enough gas? Is this diver doin ok or are they about to panic? Ascent rate monitoring. Just some examples. I would rather not have to "think" about how to dump air. With the configuration I use, the only thing that's different in an OOA is that another diver has one of my second stages. Everything else is unchanged.
3. That divemaster might have been overweighted. I rarely even touch my inflator above 20 ft, because my bladder is virtually empty by then. Or was he positively buoyant the entire safety stop, staying down by clinging to the line?

You would have to know this DM but he wasn't over weighted and is one of the best recreational divers I've ever seen in the water. It was cold water though and he was wearing a heavy semi-dry wet suit and the other diver was in a two piece 7 mil. A lot of compression happens in the top 20 ft.
4. My procedure is to lift the inflator and dump. If I'm breathing from my AIR-2, that means taking it out of my mouth every now and then.

-Klaus

Shoulder dumps - hehehe - shoulder dumps - sigh.

Of course it can be done. By itself it isn't even tricky. It's just one more thing to have to practice and think about and it's one that we can eliminate.

IMO, if we're going to complicate a procedure, especially a critical one, there should be some real benefit. In this case I don't see one. As I said before this looks slick compared to an alternate on a sloppy long hose with the reg held to the diver by some little clip thingy that usually comes loose leaving the alternate to dangle but I don't like that solution either.

My solution is to just put my backup right under my chin on a hose just long enough to allow free movement of my head when using it.

Just looking at it from a systems engineering point of view, when ever we make a change we need to consider the impact on other parts of the system. Ideally, when we add something (equipment or procedure) the change is isolated and solves a problem or fills a need with zero effect on the rest of the system.

In this case you get rid of a hose. Now you need to change the ascent procedure. Now they add shoulder dumps. Now you have something else to think about and practice. It's a lot to go through to get rid of a hose that when sized well and routed well was never a problem. And all this assumes that the diver is going to practice using the device.

My bet is that most divers who use these things haven't practiced with them. I warn you though it's the bet is rigged. In almost 4 years of owning a dive shop I've argued this with many many people. Usually I get them with my first question which is..."Have you practiced with it?" They haven't and usually respond with "Oh, I never thought of that. I'll try it". This is a whole seperate issue, of course, but they're sold on the device to get rid of a hose (which is a pain the way they were taught to rig and carry it) and they assume they'll be able to use it when they need to.

The dive shop makes more by selling an air2 though than they do selling you a well sized hose and a piece of shock cord. LOL
 
Scotty once bubbled... Is the air 2 a good octo or should I go with the standard octo? I know I can go much cheaper for a standard. Someone said the air 2 was ok but not as good as a standard octo. What would you do and why? I would like to stay under 80 bucks or even under 60 if I could. Thanks
I took my OW with the AIR2 and considered buying one.

After some thought, I did not.

- I can put my short hose regulator on a necklace and get the advantage of knowing where it is at all times.

- I would have had to buy a octo length hose for my primary anyway, so the cost difference is between buying an AIR2 and buying a second stage and inflator.

- I do not know anyone who uses an AIR2 as a primary regulator. How good can it be?

I use two second stages, either of which would perform well as my primary, and an inflator.

Um, inflators go for about $30. $80 is not much of a budget for life support.
 
ew1usnr once bubbled...
This is the first I have heard of an adapter. Do they sell them through Scubapro shops, or are they from an aftermarket manufacturer? I'd like to get one of each adapter.

A drawback to them would be that the Air2 fitting has a bigger bore than a standard inflator connection. Adding an adapter to fit a standard connection would restrict the air flow to the Air2 to a small degree. I'd have to try it at depth and see if I could tell a difference.

I have not seen a QD adapter to run an Air 2 off an standard LP inflator QD fitting and I agree whole heartedly with your observation about the size of the air passage. The internal hose diameter is the same, but the fitting on the end is where the problem lies. The average LP inflator disconnect uses a schrader valve with a very limited flow rate.

What I have seen and used are adapters that will attach to a standard low pressure regulator hose. They screw onto the hose just like a second stage would. So once you obtain a hose of the appropriate lenght you can add either an Air 2 QD fitting to it or a standard inflator QD fitting and you can easily switch between them. I have one hose set up this way in the spares box on the boat. This allows the 22" hose to be used on a conventional second stage, on an standard inflator or on an Air 2 depending on which if any adaptor is used.

My Air 2 hose as shipped from the factory is just a 22" LP hose with a standard second stage fitting with the Air 2 fitting added to it. This hose could quickly be converted to a standard inflator fitting. This approach allows some flexibility and allows the use of a longer inflator hose and LP hose to meet your specific configuration requirements. If you are into a well stocked spares box like I am, this approach allows you to carry an inflator fitting and a spare inflator in case your Air 2 dies.

You can normally get the fittings to go either way at your local LDS and if not, I am pretty sure Trident sells them.

Now to forestall someone pointing out that the use of a standard LP hose fitting and then an adpater on the "inflator" hose creates one more potential failure point as it requires an additional o-ring equipped fitting on the Air 2 hose in addition to the normal swaged hose connection, I need to point out that the system has less o-rings involved in the total configuration than a standard octo and inflator arrangement. It has one less hose that would have had an o-ring equipped fitting for a second stage anyway. Consequently it has one less LP port o-ring and two less swaged hose fittings.
 
Don Burke once bubbled...
I do not know anyone who uses an AIR2 as a primary regulator. How good can it be?

The reason an Air 2 is not used as a primary by anyone is intutitively obvious and the Air 2 was never designed to be a prinmary reg, both simply have their own more specialized applications. So your comparison is flawed.

Apart from this, the argument you use is logically flawed. "If nobody uses it how good can it be?" or the more commonly stated argument - "Everybody uses it/does it/like it/survives it , it must be good/right/healthy/etc." - is a classic logical fallacy. I am a little fuzzy on the Latin as it's been a long time (so excuse me if I get it wrong) but I think the Latin name for that particular logical fallacy is "Argumentum Ad Populenum."
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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