Just finished my PADI Cert - you have GOT to be kidding me

[JahJahwarrior]

I agree completely with Ricks post above.

For a little perspective on fee to learn something. Close to 10 years a go I learned to fly.
....

Figure skating and ice dance lessons-

....

Learning to ride and jump horses(not me but my daughter did) at the very lowest most basic level $35/hour plus a ton of associated costs that I shudder to think of.

So why should scuba lessons and the resulting OW certification be charged at rates that make the federal minimum wage look like Fortune 500 CEO's pay scale. After all isn't your instructor teaching you to go into an environment that you don't belong in? Do you want a professional or just someone that merits the pay of a 16 year old part time burger flipper/floor mopper?

I know piloting lessons are one-on-one, as my dad is a pilot. I'm not sure about figure staking, ice dancing and horse riding lessons, but I'm going to assum ethose are 1-on-1 as well.

That is where the difference lies. The OP said he had 8 people in the class. 8 people x $550= a big number. I'm sure most places you pay to rent the pool, per hour, not per student. So even with one student, you've paid for the pool, and you don't pay any more for the other 7 students. Some of the other stuff is not the same way....but the books and all are paid for by the student, I'm assuming they atleast break even on that sale. Gear is rented, by the student (some shops lump it into class cost.) Atleast where I got certified, you paid your entrance to the spring, and gas out there, etc. If you wanted to go to someplace nifty to get certified, it cost more.

If scuba was one on one training, I could undrestand the high cost. And if you hvae to do boat dives, I understand the cost. I think we had four air fills in my class? Pool two days, one fill per day, and then we used half the tank for each of the four dives, on two days. Anyways, I think with the fact that the instructor can teach so many people, the cost should go down. If it's a 3 student class, having one price makes sense, but if you have a 10 student class, give everyone a discount!

That said, I think there are probably rules on how many people one instructor can handle. I know on our hceck out dives we had a DM in training along to help out. He did it for free because he was working on his DM training. So the shop got help for free. I'm sure most shops can get help for free. When in college, I'd like to try to strike a deal with a shop to get training in exchange for working for them, with the goal of becoming a divemaster. That will be free work for them

 

[MikeFerrara]

That said, I think there are probably rules on how many people one instructor can handle. I know on our hceck out dives we had a DM in training along to help out. He did it for free because he was working on his DM training. So the shop got help for free. I'm sure most shops can get help for free. When in college, I'd like to try to strike a deal with a shop to get training in exchange for working for them, with the goal of becoming a divemaster. That will be free work for them

There are rules limiting how many students one instructor can have in the water at one time. While a dive master in training may be of some help at times, they are a student and count against the instructors ratio rather than for it.

Lots of DM's work for free and some instructors work for close to it. It all sort of works like Amway or something and that's one thing that helps keep the price down.

I can tell you this, when I stopped teaching, I was charging about $400 for an OW course and it was costing me money to teach. I had to sell some masks and fins just to break even. I would have made more money by just renting out the equipment. Of course, I should have figured this all out before I opened a dive shop because when I was teaching for other shops, it never even paid my expenses. Like I said...it's an Amway type of thing.

I don't want to discourage you but what exactly can do that would be of help to a dive shop? A shop only needs so many shelves hung and floors swept. beyond that, the help needs to know the courses and the merchendise well enough to do sales, run a compressor, mix gas, inspect tanks, service equipment, do book work, manage inventory and so on. By the time you know enough to be of much help the shop will have a small fortune invested in you. How do you feel about indentured servatide?

When I had a shop I had several very good dive masters that worked for free (I covered some of their expenses). I would like to have paid them but there wasn't any money for that. The problem was that they showed up for classes when they wanted to...who could blame them and what was I going to do, fire them? LOL sometimes I had so many divemasters that I didn't know what to do with them and sometimes I had NONE. So, I had to have my shop closed on the weekend so my wife would be free to be the DM. If a shop wants good AND dependable help, they need to pay them real money.

Further, DM's work most when they are in training (when it don't count) and when they're new. Once the novelty wears off they show up less often (it's not like they're making any money) and the shop has to train up a new batch. You see the issue here? The shop is always trying to get by with inexperienced help. Like I said, they're worth every cent they're getting paid. Paying a reasonable salery would allow the shop to get some talent in the door.

 

[EastEndDiver]

$550 included classtime, pooltime, book, dvd's, forms, binder, rental of gear (bc, regs, wetsuit), ow dives. I had to supply fins, boots, weights, belt, mask and snorkel. And if I didn't have that, it was available to rent.

It was all inclusive it seems .That really is not a bad price for NY .

 

[MikeFerrara]

JahJahwarrior,

Really, I don't want to discourage you too much but as a new diver your value to a dive shop is your first few classes after OW (those often have a higher profit margine than OW), your first few big equipment purchases and maybe a couple of trips. As a rule the shop probably has about two year, at most, to make about everything they're ever going to make off you. Most shops need as many of those new divers as they can get just to keep the doors open...the Amway thing again.

 

[jsado]

Would really like to know the name of the store.....

Sorry can't do it to those guys. Like I said, really nice people - but.....

 

[jbd]

I know piloting lessons are one-on-one, as my dad is a pilot. I'm not sure about figure staking, ice dancing and horse riding lessons, but I'm going to assum ethose are 1-on-1 as well.

Not all are 1 on 1. I was in several lessons where there were 3 or 4 people besides me. I did take some horse riding lessons at $35/hour with 10 people in the classes.

If scuba was one on one training, I could undrestand the high cost. And if you hvae to do boat dives, I understand the cost. I think we had four air fills in my class? Pool two days, one fill per day, and then we used half the tank for each of the four dives, on two days.

Most of my teaching is 1 on 1 for scuba. Somtimes its 2 to 1. I have enough stuff to do 4 to 1 but I most likely won't do that. It seriously cuts down on the amount of time I can devote to each student.

Lets compare my course to the course you took or one similar to what the OP had.

OP had 8 students in the class. If the class was a similar time schedule as yours, how much time was the instructor working with each student? Not much in reality. Even with say six hours in the pool per day the instructor is only really focused on each student for 1.5 hours out of 12 hours total. Most pool sessions aren't much more than 2 hours so in reality there wa probably only 8 hours total so maybe the OP only got 1 hour of the instructors time over the two days.

Four dives on two tanks of air indicates short dives to me. Maybe 20 minutes per dive for a total of 80 minutes of bottom time. Here again how much time does each student get from the instructor? 80 minutes diveded by 8 students in the class.

My course one on one. Pool time 2.5 to 3 hours per session times 6 sessions. Thats 15 to 18 hours of focused instruction. I watch everthing that student does and I watch it in detail. I critique every bit of it. I correct every thing that isn't quite right. I have time to teach them how to deal with problems comfortably while remaining underwater instead of bolting for the surface.

Now lets look at the open water cert dives. You did for dives. Most likely the OP did the same. My course has 6 open water dives. Each dive lasts between 45 minutes and an hour. Once certified my students already have between four and six hours of bottom time ahve planned and conducted two dives one of which is a compass navigation dive with two course changes that ends where we started. If the student gets lost or messes up with the compass and we have to make a surface swim back to the exit point then that dive has to be repeated.

Dive number six is planned, conducted and lead soley by the student in a role reversal exercise. If they botch this dive, no C-card until it is completed sucessfully. The only thing I will do for them on this dive is make sure they don't get hurt or die.

Which student set do you think is getting the most bang for their buck?

 

[H2ODog]

My OW, AOW and Rescue were all taken through college. I received a college credit for each class. OW took most of the term while the other two were only a couple weeks long and all of the classes were a couple hundred dollars (not counting tuition).

Was the classes subsidized? Yes, no pool rental, no classroom space but the dive shop that had the contract was getting 45 new students 3 of the 4 terms and about 20 in the summer. Did the shop pay their instructors, yes but one told me that the money basically covered the expenses but not much more. They did get gear discounts and free air but did it more for the instruction and teaching than to make money.

With so many students (college non the less) using gear all the time it was in good shape. Not top of the line stuff, but very functional and not as old as dirt. With all the classes I don't very remember any student having any problems with their gear, I'm sure it happened occasionally but I didn't see or hear of any problems.

The shop did rely on gear sales and didn't necessarily say to buy from them but they were the only shop in town so unless you wanted to drive 60 miles to another shop it was the place to buy all your personal gear.

I was happy with the quality of training and the price but my cert's are not the norm. I would have to say I couldn't fork out 500-1000 dollars for OW unless I did a scuba experience prior and absolutely loved it.

The world's changing and so must everything else including instruction, cost, mode of operations. Those that make good choices and change for the better survive those that don't fail. Research and choose a good LDS or private instructor and pay as much as you can afford because good training can prevent accidents.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I still can't get over the not using your own gear thing. I would have walked right then and there and found a shop that was not so fixated on making a buck. It sounds to me like they were ashamed of their gear and did not want other students seeing what kind of crap they were putting you in.

 

[kkgodiving]

------OH and not to mention, there were a few people in the class that shouldn't be allowed near an unattended glass of water that passed.

Wow I had thot my AOW class last June was bad. We lost 2 divers on 2 occassions - not dead but lost and surfaced on their own. There were 2 divers who would have fitted your description. Yet all the 8 of us passed. My younger son at 11 years then with juz OW was so much more competent than them. While confidence and competency come from experience, I believe the instructor has the moral obligation to ensure the student meet the minimum too.

 

[D_B]

Price does seem high, but I have only mine to compare it to .. $85 + course materials and I know from reading the board that is a very low price (was a 2 for 1 deal at LDS, came to $145 total for my C card .. all OW was shore dives)

And ... Rental gear does not have to be bad gear , none of the gear in my clases did anyone have a problem with, or not work
... From my dive shop ...

Scuba Equipment Rental:
Why rent your scuba gear from us?
• We rotate out the old gear and bring in new gear twice a year.


• We offer top-of-the line rental gear such as:

SeaQuest Pro QD Plus BCD with integrated weight
ScubaPro EverFlex wetsuits
ScubaPro Regulators
ScubaPro Split Fins
Uwatec Computers
Oceanic Computers





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