"Known Unknowns...Unknown Unknowns" - Are they covered enough in diving?

[GLOC]

2airishuman: You are right that cave collapses are something that might be considered, but do you know of another one? Seeing as it took considerable research to determine the cause, then I would put it into the U/U category. An example of U/U is the financial collapse of 2008, we knew it might happen, but the odds were so far off that no-one had considered it at the time, but in hindsight, it was 'obvious'.

jseyfert3: No, you can't train for that specific situation, but you can train to be creating thinking and thinking around a problem, rather than just give up.

I know I created the title with both U/U and K/U in it, but I find it interesting that the conversation seems to be focussing more on U/U than K/U, the latter is something we can definitely do. One of the earlier posts I talked about 'community knowledge' and 'individual knowledge', and to a certain extent the following answers the question about how to improve instruction. We (the community and training organisations) need to be able to talk about failure more often because that is where the problem solving for K/U is developed. We need talk about the decision making process, the reason why it made sense to us at the time. The tagline from John Cleese summed it up, we need to stop being worried about failure, failure is normal. Learning from failure is how you improve the ability to deal with other K/U and when the 'personal' U/U come up.

Regarding the U/U, you could say that there are truly no U/U because it just takes an imagination to come up with something and someone is bound to have thought of that...

 

[Bob DBF]

One of the earlier posts I talked about 'community knowledge' and 'individual knowledge', and to a certain extent the following answers the question about how to improve instruction. We (the community and training organisations) need to be able to talk about failure more often because that is where the problem solving for K/U is developed. We need talk about the decision making process, the reason why it made sense to us at the time.

Well, the training organizations are not likely to expand the timeframe of their classes in order to address failure as long as diving is safe. As for community, the diving communities I have been around over the years, passes along a lot of information in "sea stories" if one has the ability to find good information amongst the bulls**it.

As a divers abilities, knowledge, and experience increase, this will change what constitutes each catagory, and give the diver more to draw upon when confronted with a new situation, whether known to others or not.



Bob

 

[Neilwood]

Is the U/K where most bad stuff actually happens? I.e. two divers ender a cave, untrained, they don't know the dangers. They kick up silt, get lost, die. Other people know to avoid kicking up silt and to use lines that they can follow out by feel, but the divers that died didn't know that.

If something is truly U/U, how can you even train for it? How do you train for what you don't know and nobody else knows either?

You can never truly train for the U/U but what you can make sure of is that you have trained thinking divers, who with the correct theoretical knowledge, attitude and problem solving mindset, will have a better chance of mitigating the effects of a problem.

The example @Diver0001 gave of the astronaut comes to mind. Take Apollo 13 for example - a completely unexpected situation cropped up that nobody had even considered with a huge amount of consequential issues arising from it. With the knowledge of the systems and the correct mindset they came up with solutions and everyone came back alive. It involved a hell of a lot of lateral thinking using systems for things that they were never designed for but they came up with a best fit solution that certainly wasn't (and by its very nature could never be) in any manual.

 

[jseyfert3]

You can never truly train for the U/U but what you can make sure of is that you have trained thinking divers, who with the correct theoretical knowledge, attitude and problem solving mindset, will have a better chance of mitigating the effects of a problem.

The example @Diver0001 gave of the astronaut comes to mind. Take Apollo 13 for example - a completely unexpected situation cropped up that nobody had even considered with a huge amount of consequential issues arising from it. With the knowledge of the systems and the correct mindset they came up with solutions and everyone came back alive. It involved a hell of a lot of lateral thinking using systems for things that they were never designed for but they came up with a best fit solution that certainly wasn't (and by its very nature could never be) in any manual.

Well yes, but that wasn't really solved by the astronauts themselves...but rather by hundreds of engineers on the ground, who then radioed instructions to the crew on a fix. A diver doesn't have this benifit. Certainly you can train for the unexpected, but if it's too much, you're dead without external support.

 

[Neilwood]

The engineers on the ground weren't trained for the situation either but by having the right attitude were able to go outside the box to remedy the situation.

 

[Neilwood]

Actually , if I give over to my inner and am entirely truthful, I should probably change the post above to reflect that the engineers did in fact go into the box (of what was available on the Apollo craft) to "design" the scrubber that saved the crew! Had they simply stuck to the training and manuals, the crew would have died.

The point is that if you only train someone how to pass a course, then yes they will pass the course but they most likely do not have the extra knowledge to adapt that should something unexpected happen. By training the theory and mindset, you encourage people to "adopt, adapt, improve" (to borrow the round table motto) and therefore have a higher chance of success.

 

[The Chairman]

Does this conversation really belong in "New divers and those considering diving"?

Well, we don't have a philosophy section.

The problem with training is sometimes we over emphasize some less needed skills at the expense of better or more appropriate skills. Take CESAs for example. Waaaaaay too much emphasis has been placed on them. When in actuality, buddy skills and gas management are far more important and would prevent being either OOA or OOB (Out of Buddy) much less both at the same time. I mean really? How much training does it take to swim for the surface anyway? Do you think divers even remember their training during this traumatic time? No.

 

[BDSC]

I guess I looked at the original post as being an advertisement for the classes that were linked to at the end of the long post with testimonials linked as well. I was under the impression that this particular forum didn't allow for that.

 

[The Chairman]

I guess I looked at the original post as being an advertisement

Yeah... knowing the man, I do believe he's passionate about this. If he just posted the links we would have had a problem. But instead, he started a discussion and even though he cited the classes at the end of the OP, I don't take him for much of a FIGJAM. He just wants to get the word out. I've had a few people try and get me to take his online classes, and yet I haven't. Apathy? Perhaps. Hubris? Well, I'm guilty of that and I'm sure that's a contributing factor. Mostly, I don't think I would benefit from it. I have my own way of looking at training, accidents and survival. I've been diving since 1969 without a major incident. Trying to reinvent that wheel this late in the game just doesn't make sense to me. I would rather perfect what's been working for me for so long. This is good for younger divers: the zero to hero divers. It helps bridge the gap of not having the experience. Some might disagree with me and that's OK. I am who I am.

 

[BDSC]

Now it's in a more appropriate place.

Thanks.