LDS Scams

[dweeb]

They are not overfilling the cylinder if they fill it to its rated pressure at the temperature it is at when filled.

If, for example, they are "hot filling" a cylinder that reaches 130F when being filled, then "full" for a 3000 psi cylinder at that temperature is ~3330 psi. If they claim they will not "overfill" that cylinder, but refuse to fill it beyond 3,000 psi at that temperature, then they're committing fraud - because full at that temperature is NOT 3,000 psi, it is 3330.

Slight problem there. "Full" is a function of capacity, which is a function of how much pressure the metal of the tank can hold back, i.e. provide a reaction force to. Heating the tank raises the pressure, but does not increase its strength.
By your reasoning, a tank at, say 500F isn't 'full' until it's
exploding.

The only consistent way to measure a fill is in cubic feet of air at some fixed temperature and pressure, say, 70F and one ATA. There is no reason not to measure and charge for it on that basis. I doubt there are many LDS's that don't have a computer to handle inventory, bookkeeping, etc. It would take half an hour to write an application or create a spreadsheet where you put in the tank size, beginning pressure, and final pressure, and get a price based on the cubic feet transferred.

 

[quimby]

Fillexpress. Isn't that in Florida smack in the middle of some of the best diving in North America? It should be self evident why it would succeed

Its only evident if you dont look. He is not only fill express but diveriteexpress and his web presence according to your statement should not be necessary. HE approached a market and looked at, did his homework and went on from there. He is sucessful because of that, not is spite of that.
And plenty of other shops in that area and the Keys go under daily, just because of those shortcomings.

I had a shop in the 60's and we didnt have the internet but mail order was the competition and serious in New england. The mark ups were a little less but I competed with the mail order(discounting to within a couple of percent) and generally with success, offered services resonable and no games, and encouraged diving not buying (but naturally that came too) . And my area "lost quite a few dive shops in the 6yrs I was there" who didnt or couldnt and life went on. Probably most of the shops would have closed anyway but the reasons were basically they didnt belong in business. The only thing I gave was what I would have expected from the other side of the counter (WWMND what would Mike Nelson do..... on no thats another story)
Then there is your warranty issues, boy refusing to work on it is going to show me how to support a customer and cajole him to my loyal side(read blind to customer service for refusing) and the list goes on

 

[JohnF]

Its only evident if you dont look. He is not only fill express but diveriteexpress and his web presence to your statement should not be necessary. HE approached a market and looked at, did his homework and went on from there. He is sucessful because of that, not is spite of that.
And plenty of other shops in that area and the Keys go under daily, just because of those shortcomings.

Again I say ... Huh? I have no idea what you just meant to express. 8)

JohnF

 

[TCDiver1]

I sold nothing as a "loss leader." We were many times accused of doing it by others who couldn't compete with us, but we never did. Not once in the entire time I ran the place. More importantly to the point at hand, I never claimed (falsely) that I was doing so in an attempt to garner sympathy either.

Every product and service I sold was profitable at the price offered. Some more profitable than others, but all were in fact profitable. If we could not make a profit on a given product or service, we didn't sell it. This did indeed keep us from selling a number of products and services - we elected not to serve those markets rather than lose money on them.

There is no point in trying to "make it up on volume" when each incremental unit of volume results in a loss.

Nobody who wants to stay in business sells something at 1/3rd to 1/5th of what it costs to provide.

Ever.

My business isn't retail but we get forced into selling product at a loss all the time. The key is making sure mark ups across the board, on all products and services you provide, puts you on the right side of the balance sheet. A difficult task when your volume and type of volume is unknown and unpredictable.

Eg: If i tried to sell you a only a furnace filter which costs me a buck, for my total encumbered cost including overhead, that filter could end up costing you 20-30 bucks. You and i both know that dog will never hunt. The lost gets made up on larger dollar items.

It honestly wouldn't matter to me if we were losing money on fills as long as we were charging what the market would bear and the loss got made up elsewhere. If the loss isn't made up, bye bye business.

LDS's are no different than any other business. If they don't make money, they go out of business. So if your LDS has been around awhile and isn't independantly wealthy, and complains about losing money on airfills, take it with a grain of salt.

Also, profit isn't evil. No one wants to work for nothing. Why should anyone expect an LDS to do so?

 

[divefan]

The shop owner can't be competitive at the realistic price per fill, and since he needs to have the compressor and do fills to satisfy his commitments with agencies and manufacturers, he charges what the market will bear. It would be stupid to let the compressor sit idle after spending money on it. $5 fills seem to be the industry standard figure in many areas.

air fills cost $3.00 when you buy a 12 fill card at most dive shops in this area. even at that price many people have their own compressors anyway. cheaper yet and much more convenient.

forgot to mention I am about 10 minutes from FillExpress.

 

[JohnF]

The shop owner can't be competitive at the realistic price per fill, and since he needs to have the compressor and do fills to satisfy his commitments with agencies and manufacturers, he charges what the market will bear. It would be stupid to let the compressor sit idle after spending money on it. $5 fills seem to be the industry standard figure in many areas.

air fills cost $3.00 when you buy a 12 fill card at most dive shops in this area. even at that price many people have their own compressors anyway. cheaper yet and much more convenient.

forgot to mention I am about 10 minutes from FillExpress.

I have some friends in SE Fla who would be considered by most to be pretty hard-core divers. They've all long since lost count of how many dives they should have logged. Several are inveterate gear pigs yet none of them have been enticed into owning their own high pressure compressor. Since none of them are hard up for cash and are all mechanically inclined and certainly knowledgeable enough to do their own fills and even blend their own mix, I can only assume they just don't see a significant advantage for them in owning & operating a compressor.

JohnF

 

[Genesis]

SE Florida has at least two places that sell gas at a very competitive price - 1/2 of what it costs in most of the rest of the country.

$.06/cf for Nitrox, which is what some of these folks are charging, makes the marginal payback on owning your own compressor poor enough that its not worth it, unless you want it for convenience purposes only. That's under $5 for a full AL80, and since most of the time your tank is not completely empty, your "average" fill is probably in the $3-4 area.

That just happens to be a very reasonable price, and quite close to what you can "roll your own" for - yet its still profitable for the shop.

 

[archman]

I was thinking that maybe owning a compressor was more in the line for tech-heads (which may or may not include tech divers). I too know lots of divers, and only three of them owned their own compressors. Each of them had one not for cost-cutting, but for filling tanks where no dive shops were around (i.e. at sea, in the boonies, remote islands).

It's hard to keep the diver demographics relative on this board. I believe the stats show what... 50-60% of divers never progress beyond their OW class? And of the remainder, most don't progress beyond AOW, and get in maybe half a dozen dives a year. A fraction of this group owns their own gear. Some people refer to this fraction as "active divers". From there you get into teenier and teenier percentages of diving professionals, photographers and travel buffs, and eventually the miniscule tech diver community.

So when it's all broken down, the "lots of people with compressors" shrinks into near statistical obscurity. I'd like to pin a rough number on this, but it's just a wild guess. Let's say that maybe a couple thousand divers in the U.S. have their own compressors? That sounds overly optimistic.

 

[Genesis]

A big part of this is that the dive shops get folks to swallow, hook, line and sinker that its "cheaper, faster and better" for them not to.

Certainly, for the diver who only blows bubbles a dozen times a year, there's no sense in owning his or her own compressor.

Then again, its always been true that the "infrequent user" of a thing ends up spending more "per use". Economies of scale end up being part of the equation for just about everything..... this is no exception.

 

[divefan]

OK. I started the compressor thing so I guess I'll respond...It is all relative to the particular area of the country you live in. Where I live and the people I know we all dive regularly. Meaning every week several times. Having your tanks filled by your buddy or in your own garage is a major convenience. When you are filling beyond 2 tanks a week it gets to be a hassle to 1. Load up the car and drop off the tanks AND 2. Either wait in line which most dive shops do not allow (there are usually too many tanks to be filled) OR 3. More common is drop them off and pick them up another day. You do the math. You are in a constant commute back and forth to the LDS for fills. Genesis is correct. In some instances a fill may be the same or even cheaper at the LDS but, the convenience alone is worth a few cents more (even if it is more) to do it yourself. Sure, you have to change filters, oil, and do small maintenance but like anything else convenience has a price and in this case it is worth it to some. Look at the Bauer Jr. a great little workhorse compressor. With regular diving it doesn't take long to amortize the cost. Again, not even taking into account the convenience factor. This is totally a personal choice dictated by region, amount of diving you do, technical ability, comfort level of your training, etc. Main thing is to dive and have fun-wherever you get your fills.