Leisure Pro causing our sport to die a slow death? Video games have taken the place of outdoor sports for a lot of families. Hunting and fishing are seeing lower participation. We have had established golf courses close around here. Has diving been part of that trend, too? I'd like to see more folks having fun outdoors, regardless of the activity.
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psychocabbage
Contributor
We use them all the time.. No problems here.
So far, we have purchased all of our kids gear (BC, regs, computer) from LP.
So far, we have purchased all of our kids gear (BC, regs, computer) from LP.
mike_s
Contributor
Good post OFFtheWall.
LP isn't going away... shops should learn to deal with them or loose their customers.
LP isn't going away... shops should learn to deal with them or loose their customers.
OldNSalty
Contributor
Buy with a credit card (not debit) would be my only advice but yea-pretty safe, especially with such a large organization.
rstofer
Contributor
I wish you well with your business, I really do! But let's put the blame where it really lies (in my view as a customer) and that is partially with the LDS and mostly with the manufacturers. This MAP idea kills competition. Everybody wants to sell the same SP reg for $600 when, in a fair market, the thing is worth, maybe, $200. Come on, it's just a piece of plastic!
As long as the manufacturer and LDS conspire to keep prices artificially high, customers are going to get their gear elsewhere. Price fixing comes to mind. I wonder why the manufacturers haven't been sued? If scuba wasn't such a tiny market, they probably would have.
Back to the LDS - the real culprit in this issue. On the shelf there are some fine products (AL, SP, etc) all tagged with their MSRP including an obscene markup for the LDS. I walk past the counter, shudder at the price and buy it from LP. That's because I don't like to negotiate; I find it distasteful. In fact, I won't negotiate. If the posted price is more than I'm will to consider, I don't consider. But the laughable part is that the shop doesn't expect to sell it for that price either. They will often offer deep discounts - if you beg. I don't do "Sit up and beg". So, here we stand, on opposite sides of the counter with no way to do business. I have the money, the LDS has the product, and we can't even get started.
Sometimes the discounted price, while still higher than LP, is within the realm of reason and worth considering simply to help support the LDS. But you have to negotiate and one customer will get a lower price than another. I always figure that I am getting the benefit of a higher price than another customer because I don't like to negotiate. So I don't even ask. In fact, I find the entire process so distasteful that many times I don't even go to the LDS to look. I just order it on line.
I like ordering on line. There's a product, a price that's the same for everyone, sales tax and shipping. I know exactly what I am getting and exactly what I should pay for it. I can comparison shop to find the lowest total price and place an order. I don't have to wonder if the sales clerk is laughing his a** off as I walk out the door with my under-discounted widget. "Boy, we really stung him!".
What is really obscene is an LDS that also has a web presence selling the same product in their store for more than advertised on their web site. And unless you call them on it, you get the benefit of the higher store price. Sure, you save the shipping but that's not the point. They have the product, sitting in a box and ready to ship, and yet they expect to sell it for more over the counter than if they have to call UPS to pick it up. The difference isn't always trivial. Sometimes it is 30% or so. That's the way to build a relationship!
What the LDS does have is the training and a somewhat captive audience for some initial equipment purchase. I would imagine most people buy their personal equipment from the LDS when they sign up for a class. That's the time for the LDS to start cultivating a long term relationship. Without pushing to sell, explain that while the MSRP is posted, equipment is typically sold at some discount. Don't wait for the customer to ask about pricing, explain how it works before the customer decides to go elsewhere.
Most of all, give the customer a little respect. Just because they don't flinch when they pay the bill doesn't mean they don't know they've been had. It simply means that, for this one transaction, they are willing to put up with it because it isn't worth the hassle. Perhaps timing is more important than money, this one time. Most customers know exactly what things cost elsewhere.
If the LDS closes whatever will we do about refills? I envision a smaller shop selling just fills. It could be a part time business, open for a couple of hours in the evening and selling no equipment. Just fills and maybe VIs. Maybe, for a significant extra cost, deal with getting tanks hydro'd. Maybe not, it's too much hassle.
There are a lot of small store-front businesses selling things like bottled water, prepaid cell phones, tobacco products, fake jewelry, etc. It shouldn't take much to start a small refill station.
Training? I have always thought that diver training should be like driver training. It is a separate, for-profit, operation completely independent of manufacturers and retailers. Car dealerships don't offer training and neither does DMV. But if the total number of divers declines over time, what difference does it make? Scuba manufacturers aren't exempt from the realities of a market and an economy. Resorts will come up with a different approach and life will move on.
The LDSs are going to die! Well, to take Dick Cheney's retort out of context, "So?".
Richard
As long as the manufacturer and LDS conspire to keep prices artificially high, customers are going to get their gear elsewhere. Price fixing comes to mind. I wonder why the manufacturers haven't been sued? If scuba wasn't such a tiny market, they probably would have.
Back to the LDS - the real culprit in this issue. On the shelf there are some fine products (AL, SP, etc) all tagged with their MSRP including an obscene markup for the LDS. I walk past the counter, shudder at the price and buy it from LP. That's because I don't like to negotiate; I find it distasteful. In fact, I won't negotiate. If the posted price is more than I'm will to consider, I don't consider. But the laughable part is that the shop doesn't expect to sell it for that price either. They will often offer deep discounts - if you beg. I don't do "Sit up and beg". So, here we stand, on opposite sides of the counter with no way to do business. I have the money, the LDS has the product, and we can't even get started.
Sometimes the discounted price, while still higher than LP, is within the realm of reason and worth considering simply to help support the LDS. But you have to negotiate and one customer will get a lower price than another. I always figure that I am getting the benefit of a higher price than another customer because I don't like to negotiate. So I don't even ask. In fact, I find the entire process so distasteful that many times I don't even go to the LDS to look. I just order it on line.
I like ordering on line. There's a product, a price that's the same for everyone, sales tax and shipping. I know exactly what I am getting and exactly what I should pay for it. I can comparison shop to find the lowest total price and place an order. I don't have to wonder if the sales clerk is laughing his a** off as I walk out the door with my under-discounted widget. "Boy, we really stung him!".
What is really obscene is an LDS that also has a web presence selling the same product in their store for more than advertised on their web site. And unless you call them on it, you get the benefit of the higher store price. Sure, you save the shipping but that's not the point. They have the product, sitting in a box and ready to ship, and yet they expect to sell it for more over the counter than if they have to call UPS to pick it up. The difference isn't always trivial. Sometimes it is 30% or so. That's the way to build a relationship!
What the LDS does have is the training and a somewhat captive audience for some initial equipment purchase. I would imagine most people buy their personal equipment from the LDS when they sign up for a class. That's the time for the LDS to start cultivating a long term relationship. Without pushing to sell, explain that while the MSRP is posted, equipment is typically sold at some discount. Don't wait for the customer to ask about pricing, explain how it works before the customer decides to go elsewhere.
Most of all, give the customer a little respect. Just because they don't flinch when they pay the bill doesn't mean they don't know they've been had. It simply means that, for this one transaction, they are willing to put up with it because it isn't worth the hassle. Perhaps timing is more important than money, this one time. Most customers know exactly what things cost elsewhere.
If the LDS closes whatever will we do about refills? I envision a smaller shop selling just fills. It could be a part time business, open for a couple of hours in the evening and selling no equipment. Just fills and maybe VIs. Maybe, for a significant extra cost, deal with getting tanks hydro'd. Maybe not, it's too much hassle.
There are a lot of small store-front businesses selling things like bottled water, prepaid cell phones, tobacco products, fake jewelry, etc. It shouldn't take much to start a small refill station.
Training? I have always thought that diver training should be like driver training. It is a separate, for-profit, operation completely independent of manufacturers and retailers. Car dealerships don't offer training and neither does DMV. But if the total number of divers declines over time, what difference does it make? Scuba manufacturers aren't exempt from the realities of a market and an economy. Resorts will come up with a different approach and life will move on.
The LDSs are going to die! Well, to take Dick Cheney's retort out of context, "So?".
Richard
vladimir
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Why I should care if the "sport is dying"? Should I worry that there won't be enough hack divers to crowd the reef and trample the coral on my next dive? There will always be somebody to meet the demand for goods and services, dive-related or otherwise. What we lose in economies of scale we will gain in diminished wear and tear on the diving environment. The problem the dive industry has is the same as the problem the automobile industry has: overcapacity. The capitalist solution is to let the least competitive firms go out of business. But if they're lucky, there may be a federal bailout in their future.
OP: you should have no qualms about purchasing any equipment from LeisurePro: computers, "life support" equipment, anything. I have bought numerous items from them and I have been completely satisfied with their goods and service.
OP: you should have no qualms about purchasing any equipment from LeisurePro: computers, "life support" equipment, anything. I have bought numerous items from them and I have been completely satisfied with their goods and service.
rstofer
Contributor
There is one consideration as to warranty. Some manufacturers are providing "free parts for life" if the equipment is maintained within warranty. With no warranty, you don't get free parts and that can add substantially to the cost of annual maintenance. Perhaps as much as $80 or so. The manufacturers get an annual opportunity to rip you off. Do you really NEED annual maintenance? Beats me...
So, look at Dive Rite! The Hurricane is more or less reasonably priced but the important part is that the maintenance manual is available online as are the parts kits. I'm not advocating self-maintenance but at least you know exactly what the parts will cost.
Take every opportunity to avoid ScubaPro and AquaLung. If we quit enabling them, maybe they will revise their business model. It's not possible to avoid them entirely but a buying decision should always favor anybody else, all things being equal.
Richard
So, look at Dive Rite! The Hurricane is more or less reasonably priced but the important part is that the maintenance manual is available online as are the parts kits. I'm not advocating self-maintenance but at least you know exactly what the parts will cost.
Take every opportunity to avoid ScubaPro and AquaLung. If we quit enabling them, maybe they will revise their business model. It's not possible to avoid them entirely but a buying decision should always favor anybody else, all things being equal.
Richard
My advice is to buy from the place that suits your needs. Some equipment is better purchased through a LDS whereas some can be purchased from Leisure Pro.
For example, when I ordered my drysiut, I went through a LDS where I could get properly measured. However, I purchased my last pair of fins through Leisure Pro.
Leisure Pro also carries a large assortment of brands. Most LDS only carry a limited number of brands. I purchased my original mask through a LDS, when I went to replace it, the LDS no longer carried the mask... Leisure Pro to the rescue!
I have never had a problem with Leisure Pro.
For example, when I ordered my drysiut, I went through a LDS where I could get properly measured. However, I purchased my last pair of fins through Leisure Pro.
Leisure Pro also carries a large assortment of brands. Most LDS only carry a limited number of brands. I purchased my original mask through a LDS, when I went to replace it, the LDS no longer carried the mask... Leisure Pro to the rescue!
I have never had a problem with Leisure Pro.
I was bored, so I started a separate thread with a poll on this subject:
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/263066-buying-gear-online-good-evil.html
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/263066-buying-gear-online-good-evil.html
off the grid
Registered
I've used LP repeatedly with good results. Bought a VEO 100 from them. After a year, the battery went dead, I changed it out, but the computer would only run for one or two dives before going dead again. Sent it back to LP and they sent out a new one. No problem. Good company.
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