Lifeguard Systems Equipment

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off the grid

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Location
Helena, Montana
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200 - 499
After looking through the LGS website, their catalog and their recommendations for equipment, I have some questions.

1. They recommend jet fins or rocket fins (Scuba Pro, Aqualung). Do most PSDs use this type of fin and do you have a preference? Also, the Aqualung makes a rocket and rocket II (slightly larger version). Does anyone have any comments on the different rocket fins?

2. Do most PSDs use the LGS BC or something similar? Comments or recommendations?

3. Would you recommend any of their courses for a team that has a few very experienced people but more newer individuals (2-3) years that are familiar with doing patterns, doing evidence searches and doing body searches/recovery?

Any info would be appreciated. Thanks
 
Hi Grid

1) jet fins aren't particular to LGS - you'll find allot of PSD teams (and tech divers) using them exclusively. For what we're doing they are superior in getting you the power that you need when you need it because they are a rigid/low flex material. The hyped up split-hinge-double-jointed-bionic fins that seem to come out all the time are never really put to the test in so far as PSD is concerned. If sport diving in no current along a reef they're probably fine but you'll find all kinds of recommendations for the jets by unbiased entities like the US coast guard & navy. When we're in a current its good to know you've got some power behind the kicks when it could be your butt!
*About the only "study/tests" that I've ever seen that favoured split fins was done by Rodales; although they claim to be unbiased they are probably partial to their advertisers and the products they sell - just seems to be the way that rag is published (YMMV)
When you want to control your position in the water better the jet type fin will also give the most options for other kinds of fin kicks (ie backfinning, helicopter turns etc which can't be done effectively with splits)
An added bonus is that they are also negative in the water, which may negate or lessen the need for ankle weights. The rocket fins that you mentioned aren't negative - they are shaped the same and probably perform the same (I've never used them in particular) but are plastic as opposed to rubber so they float like most other fins
BTW - if you're wearing drysuits with larger boots opting up to the "turtle" fins (now made by xscuba) is the same as jets. They just have a larger foot pocket. Most of our divers use the turtles with the viking drysuit

2) What makes the LGS BC desireable to some is its basic design. I realize that you've done some diving so you may already have noticed a few of these points about BCDs but in case not... We don't need a fancy BCD for PSD - in fact the simplier the better. Avoid integrated weights, multiple d-rings, pockets and clips this will just end up being a liability.
Most BCD pockets are non-functional for a diver wearing heavy gloves - the LGS pockets are made for this and are designed for the tools that we would commonly need and in locations that make sense for PSD.
The LGS BC also incorporates a pony bottle sleeve so that you can avoid purcahsing a seperate pony harness for you pony bottles.
We're trialling one right now actually. So far, it seems to be the preference of the team over allot of other types

3) I would say yes to this but some may consider me biased as I do teach for LGS. In my defence my PSD/diving experience spans allot more agencies and classes then just LGS so if you'd like to discuss things further feel free to e-mail/pm me.
We're actually just across the northern border from you so quite close in terms of this part of the world.

hope this helps

mark
 
Mark,

I did not realize you taught for LGS, good for you. I also liked your answers but I would like to add a few comments comments.

Grid,

I have come to learn that in every aspect of PSDiving whether it is training, gear or whatever doing your home and getting educated is huge. Don't just take what one or two people say as gospel and verse. Take the time and make the effort to find out what works for you and your team. Don’t get me wrong, there is a lot of great information out there that is very applicable to PSDiving and can be very helpful. That being said here are my comments on your questions.

As for fins or most gear issues I believe that keeping it simple is the key. Too fancy means more chances of problems or failure. On the other hand you should find what works for you. Wearing fins that are popular or accepted as the standard but then cramp your feet ultimately do you no good. Over the years I have tried many types of fins and I now dive exclusively with Force Fin Pro's. I have huge feet that get cramped in a closed toe pocket and I found the kick easier. In eight years of PSDiving I have not found these fins to be lacking in force or control. Again this is what works for me and I spent a lot of time finding the right fin.

As for BCD's again keeping it simple is the common theme. This was one point that I really had to disagree with LGS. They are a proponent of the vest style BCD primarily because of the distressed diver on the surface scenario. If we dive the way they teach then there are always people around to assist if we surface in distress (safety, 90% diver, tender etc). We are not going to be on the surface without assistance for very long. Conversely we spend the most amount of our time under the water and having a comfortable streamline BC is very important. During the LGS class my team all had Zeagle Rangers which we all had been using for several years with great success and no problems. In addition to the rear inflation LGS also had problems with the integrated weight. After taking the training our team chose not to follow the LGS mindset regarding BCD's and we now all dive with Halcyon BCD's. They are very low profile and balanced in the water. Personally I have tried different amounts of air on the surface and have yet to feel like I am being forced face down. I attached a picture of me diving last week. You can see how streamline and clean my rig is.

As for integrated weight well I have come to believe that emergency "ditch-able" weight like a weight belt is more of a liability than a safety device in PSDiving. I refer to my weight as fixed (stainless steel back plate) or removable (halcyon weight pockets). None of these can uncontrollably or accidentally be dropped without my intervention. There are many instances where accidentally dropping your weight can cause you problems. Again it all comes back to making the effort to find out what works for you.

As to your final question about training you cannot go wrong with any of the LGS classes. They are a great outfit that is very professional and puts on a great class. My team took their Dive and Ice classes a few years back. I was not able to participate but I did observe and from what I saw it looked very good. It definitely made our team better. I personally took the Dive Rescue International class and was equally impressed. One difference between the two is the signaling. LGS has a very detailed signaling system which for me I found confusing and hard to remember. Too many multiple pull signals with pauses between them. DRI uses four (4) signals and I found these easier to use and remember especially during a rescue scenario, but that is just me. Just getting your dive team trained by a nationally accept Public safety organization is very important.

Sorry for such a lengthy response but you asked some very good question and I wanted to give you some good answers. I hope my comments are helpful and good luck!

Mark D.
 

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Thanks for the info. Both posts give me some more to think about. From Coventry? I was originally from Norwich. The place has definitely changed over the years.
 
Norwich is just down the road abit from me. Long way from home out there in Montana. Great country out there spent a lot of time in Billings, Coalstrip and Helena. Big Sky is great skiing too!! Best of luck with all your PSDiving. Feel free to drop me a line any time.

Mark D.
 
Don't just take what one or two people say as gospel and verse. Take the time and make the effort to find out what works for you and your team. .
Absolutely! Take caution with anything you see on the internet. Anyone can say anything they want and you have no idea whether or not they actually know what they're talking about. We've had a few of them in here before, eh guys?

Everything Mark says is good stuff. Not because I agree with it because I don't but its his opinion and it works for him.
I will comment on the BCD's however because my opinions have changed. Mark may remember that I had been on the fence about the back vs jacket inflate debate. I do a fair amount of tech type sport diving in my spare time and for that purpose the back plate and wing combination is by far the best solution for the reasons you've outlined - as a tech diver, we spend pretty much ALL our time u/w and the streamlining IS important for that mode of diving.
But for PSD there was always this question the wing pushing you forward into the water. Is this enough of a reason to abandon the wing type BCD altogether? I've since dove all kinds of different makes of wing (OMS, halcyon, deep sea supply, zeagle) and of all different sizes (from 27# to 65#). In my mind I reasoned that a smaller wing may not cause this effect so much. Here's what I found:
1) PSDs in particular tend to go for the really big wings (usually +55lbs). We don't need wings near that big for the rigs we dive (an AL80 + 19pony?) but we do need a bit more than a standard inflate if we're pulling victims off the bottom. Probably around 35-40lbs is good enough
2) It didn't make any difference in how big the wing was! I was tipped forward just as much with the little 27lb as the 65lb! The difference seemed to be in how full the wing was - a half empty wing had little effect but a completely full one would cause all kinds of trouble
3) The only way to really avoid the effect was to lay on my back and this could be done not matter how full or what size of wing.

Let's go back to what our job is and for this think of the scenario of the most stressful type of dive in your mind - night, winter in full rescue mode.
I agree with Mark that most of our in water time is spent u/w but what is the most critical time? In my mind it would be when we find the victim until we get him to shore. It is in that time where the diver is the coldest, tiredest and definately the stress and breathing levels will peak as soon as you make contact with the victim.
Because we are in rescue mode we will surface the victim and get him to shore asap - we don't wait for extra hands. Here's what will happen:
1) The diver makes a good ascent but needs BOTH hands to really control the victim so when he gets to the surface the BCD is pumped to the max - telling someone to only fill the BCD part way isn't going to happen. He is too excited and busy to worry about fine tuning his flotation on the surface. He'll blast the power inflator for all its worth
2) As I said earlier, I found the only way to combat the head forward tilt was to lay on the back; doing this while trying to manage the victim is very difficult at best. The diver will end up vertical and the head will be pushed forward into the water as was previously known
3) To combat the head from going into the water the diver has to use his fins. He can't use his arms - he has the victim. What's worse the weight of the victim will compound the effect even more and the diver must kick that much harder.
4) What about help? When do we send out the BU diver to help? Probably after he's on the surface because to send him to depth while the diver is making his ascent isn't logical. The point is the primary diver is already working really hard at the end of a stressful dive just to reach the surface. We logically would start to send the BU diver out when the primary diver is on the surface and already struggling with the victim. He could be as far out as 100ft (some teams will send their divers out even further than this) so we send the "help" (with the same floatation problem and now almost as stressed as the primary diver) probably as the primary is getting hauled in by the tenders. So lets say he only needs to actually go half the distance out.
I've thought that perhaps we might be able to send the BU out to the bubbles as soon as we get the signal from the bottom of the find but this may not always be possible - ie current, night etc.
Is this really enough time? All it takes is a teaspoon of cold water into the airway to cause immeadiate laryngospasm and asphyxiation OR the diver's grip may slip during his struggles and we've lost the victim and may have to search all over again.

I've seen this first hand in the training of quite a few teams how much divers struggle in the water with these BCDs. Even in the pool divers will cramp up after just a few minutes of trying to remain upright at the surface. Adding the stress of a real rescue scenario would only make things worse. I believe in being streamlined in the water too but I think these factors grossly outweigh the small amount of streamlining that is gained by placing the bladder on ones back.

Trust me, I was probably one of the biggest proponents for the BP & wing as I was an avid tech diver long before I got into PSD and I pushed my team hard for us to get them and argued with the LGS big-wigs long and hard. But as I looked at it with an open mind and did realistic simulations its pretty hard to dispute. Try it for yourself - get a slippery mankin in the pool and make sure its weighted 16-20lbs (thats what we're dealing with) and let me know how you do vs a guy with a jacket BC
Heck, my own guys perfer the jacket after a few dives after using the zeagles for 5 years!

Just something to think about

mark

As for BCD's again keeping it simple is the common theme. This was one point that I really had to disagree with LGS. They are a proponent of the vest style BCD primarily because of the distressed diver on the surface scenario. If we dive the way they teach then there are always people around to assist if we surface in distress (safety, 90% diver, tender etc). We are not going to be on the surface without assistance for very long. Conversely we spend the most amount of our time under the water and having a comfortable streamline BC is very important. During the LGS class my team all had Zeagle Rangers which we all had been using for several years with great success and no problems. In addition to the rear inflation LGS also had problems with the integrated weight. After taking the training our team chose not to follow the LGS mindset regarding BCD's and we now all dive with Halcyon BCD's. They are very low profile and balanced in the water. Personally I have tried different amounts of air on the surface and have yet to feel like I am being forced face down. I attached a picture of me diving last week. You can see how streamline and clean my rig is.
 
Bridge,

You are right that handling a wet slippery victim is a challenge no matter what type of BCD you are using. Your points are well taken. I agree that we usually have bladders that are way too big. My ranger for instance had a 44lb bladder vs my Halcyon has a 30 lb bladder. What a difference making the transition has had on my diving. Not only is the BCD more streamline but it prompted me to work on improving my weights.

One of my favorite drills is victim recovery in rescue mode. We set up two scenarios. The first scenario is an immediate ascent no matter how far from out you are once you find the victim. (obviously not ice) We usually like to put the diver out about 75 to 100' to give them a good swim. They sufrace and swim the victim in with no assistance until they reach the shore area. Then we set up the same scenario but have them bring the victim up following the contour of the bottom. I know it seems weird but if they are underwater and unconcious the diver is not going to do anything on the surface while swimming them in so it really does not matter if you are on the surface or following the bottom. The divers are usually pretty suprised how different the two scenarios are. By following the contour the divers find it easier to manage the victim and when not if they lose thier grip and the victim falls it is easier to find them and continue bringing them in. If you loose the victim on the surface in 20 feet of water now you have to dive back down and find them. So depending on how your team recovers victims you may not be on the surface. For our team we follow the contour so your point about the BCD really doesn't apply.

Mark one question do you know the front to back lift ratio of the LGS vest style BCD? How much bouyancy is in the from bladders vs. the rear bladders? I was always curions if it was 50/50 or some other increment.

One other thought about bouyancy. I have found it too cumbersome to use the BCD for bouyancy control and still put air in my dry suit to take the squeeze off. Especially at shallow depths I was really working to keep neutral. I realized it had to be one or the other but not both. At first I used my BCD becuase that was what I was most familiar with and I did not have to worry about air moving around in my suit. For a while I tolerated some pretty impressive squeeze pain and imprints on my skin that lasted for over a day. Then I decided to try using my suit as the primary bouyancy control and after some practice I found it works really well. I was impressed when I did the 200 yard rescue tow the air in my suit made it easy for me to keep a good position in the water and tow the diver. Again this is just something that I found on my own that works for me.

Mark as always great dialog!! Thanks

Mark D.
 

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