Lion Hunting in Africa vs Cozumel

[tomfcrist]

So you are saying the species evolved into labrodors over generations? I know Dave is OLD, but you make him sound ancient if he Darwined the fish!

You are being obtuse. To clarify, I am referring to fish generations....not human. Generations may even be the wrong word considering the age of sexual maturity of grouper species as well as the number of spawning cycles a mature fish will participate in....either way, its not hard for an entire local population of any animal to "learn" that humans = Food.....The same applies to deer, bears, turkey, alligators, tigers, elephants etc.....it is VERY easy to alter a wild animals behavior given the proper stimulation.

Probably in another 20 years, we will decide is is TOO stressful on the fish to listen to open circuit bubbles. Only rebreathers will be allow.

Another 30 and we probably won't be allowed in the water. We will just have to watch video from small unobtrusive cameras on the reef.

Seriously, it is too easy to look down your nose on how people did things years ago and disparage them. That seems too much a self-serving attempt to feel superior to me.

I am not looking down my nose at anybody. I'm making a simple observation...and one that is well known. Why aren't you allowed to feed the bears at Yellowstone? Because it makes them view humans as a food source. This is undesirable because it is #1 an animal that can obliterate any human it wishes to and #2 makes them ridiculously easy targets for hunters. Easy targets become endangered and extinct very quickly once us humans catch wind of it. Would you not agree that it is therefore "Irresponsible" to feed bears? The same applies to the grouper....those years of feeding them made them accustomed to human interaction on a very familiar level. It created the "Labrador" effect and is the reason that Dave views them that way and doesn't hunt them. Other spearos on the other hand see an easy target when they are spearfishing. Once again, easy targets don't do so well when humans are the hunters...one example would be the Goliath Grouper when they were still legal to harvest in FL. While not necessarily an example of fish feeding being irresponsible, it highlights what happens when humans find an easy target.

 

[cvchief]

You are being obtuse.

Well I have been called worse.....

To clarify, I am referring to fish generations....not human. Generations may even be the wrong word considering the age of sexual maturity of grouper species as well as the number of spawning cycles a mature fish will participate in....either way, its not hard for an entire local population of any animal to "learn" that humans = Food.....The same applies to deer, bears, turkey, alligators, tigers, elephants etc.....it is VERY easy to alter a wild animals behavior given the proper stimulation.

Generation is what I took exception with. Sure, you might teach a single grouper to act like Labrodoodle, but you implied that DMs like Dave had caused the species to evolve into domesticated animal by genetics. That was SEVERE hyperbole. I mean Groupers can live like 30 years, so even Dave could only have worked on what? 3 generations? Surely we can Darwin them that fast?

And sure training animals bad habits is bad. We all know that crap now, but back in the seal clubbing days, it wasn't such common knowledge.

*cough* *cough*

I am not looking down my nose at anybody. I'm making a simple observation...and one that is well known.

Yea. Now. Not then. You are using current knowledge and thinking to criticize what was done before.

Why aren't you allowed to feed the bears at Yellowstone?

You make this too easy. It wasn't ALWAYS prohibited and they say Yellowstone didn't get there caja in gear on bear conservation and management until 1970ish. (I miss the single tear on Iron Eyes Cody... but I digress)

See the Yellowstone Park Foundation website.

#1 an animal that can obliterate any human it wishes to

Tell the bear to bring it, but he better pack a lunch. This is what happened the last time a bear got froggy with me:

and #2 makes them ridiculously easy targets for hunters. Easy targets become endangered and extinct very quickly once us humans catch wind of it. Would you not agree that it is therefore "Irresponsible" to feed bears? The same applies to the grouper....those years of feeding them made them accustomed to human interaction on a very familiar level. It created the "Labrador" effect and is the reason that Dave views them that way and doesn't hunt them.

Right and one day someone fisherman went there the groupers came to say hi and he killed them all or alot of them as the story goes. Same happened to the bullsharks in playa a while back. And some of them might not have been fed?

My point is you thinking is NOW not THEN. Back in the day, before we all got green I would have been firing off some cheese whiz!! But alas I missed it. Closest I get is the Capi throwing bread at me and getting me Chub swarmed while I am 'busy' in the water at Palancar Pier.

Oh and I will probably still hand some banana to the raccoons at the pier as well, cuz it REALLY ticks off the green crowd on the other boats.

Oh and I love taking the nieces and nephews to feed the pizotes at the car ferry. However if either kill anyone, I will stop. Probably.....

Other spearos on the other hand see an easy target when they are spearfishing. Once again, easy targets don't do so well when humans are the hunters...one example would be the Goliath Grouper when they were still legal to harvest in FL. While not necessarily an example of fish feeding being irresponsible, it highlights what happens when humans find an easy target.

Except lionfish, the little SOBS. We should start feeding them maybe? Of course if one of them followed me like a grouper, I would freak out.

My point is you come off as taking a shot at those who went before and what they did with what they knew then. It simply isn't fair. You can smack around anyone who has been around a while by judging them in the light of what they did then with current thinking.

 

[mstevens]

This is what happened the last time a bear got froggy with me

Bah! You needed a KNIFE?

 

[tomfcrist]

You make this too easy. It wasn't ALWAYS prohibited and they say Yellowstone didn't get there caja in gear on bear conservation and management until 1970ish..

All you are doing is making my point for me. It was prohibited because it was irresponsible and dangerous. If I fed a bear in Yellowstone in 1950 it would have still been irresponsible....which is why if I decided to feed a bear there today it would be "illegal"..

My point is you come off as taking a shot at those who went before and what they did with what they knew then. It simply isn't fair. You can smack around anyone who has been around a while by judging them in the light of what they did then with current thinking.

If it comes off that way I apologize. You have to look at the context.

To reiterate(no these are not direct quotes, but you will get the picture):

Dave: I don't eat or shoot Grouper because they are like domesticated animals.

Me: They aren't domesticated everywhere. They taste great and 1 fish can feed a small village in southeast Asia.

Dave: Grouper are as intelligent as the smarter house dogs we have.

Me: No.. They aren't. They exhibit a modified behavior in your specific location due to irresponsible interaction that would have never taken place if there wasn't money to be made from it.

Dave: Its wasn't irresponsible because everyone else was doing it too.

Me: That doesn't make it any less irresponsible.



Regardless of when the behavior modification took place, it was irresponsible. Yes, hindsight IS 20/20. However, some folks in this thread seem to think that even in hindsight it WASNT irresponsible. Furthermore, the only point I was originally trying to make is that not all grouper are like that....not all grouper have had their behavior modified in that manner, and in ALOT of places(dare I say most) they are still a challenging fish to hunt.....and completely unlike Ole Yeller.

---------- Post added August 6th, 2015 at 02:48 PM ----------

Except lionfish, the little SOBS.

Lionfish unfortunately are here to stay. They flourish in areas that divers will never visit regularly, let alone hunt regularly. They are tasty, but you have to kill and fillet a ton of them to feed a large group of people. Like I said before...Grouper are easier to deal with when it comes to going from water to grill....and they aren't venomous.

 

[Pavao]

To reiterate(no these are not direct quotes, but you will get the picture):

Dave: I don't eat or shoot Grouper because they are like domesticated animals.

Me: They aren't domesticated everywhere. They taste great and 1 fish can feed a small village in southeast Asia.

Dave: Grouper are as intelligent as the smarter house dogs we have.

Me: No.. They aren't. They exhibit a modified behavior in your specific location due to irresponsible interaction that would have never taken place if there wasn't money to be made from it.

Dave: Its wasn't irresponsible because everyone else was doing it too.

Me: That doesn't make it any less irresponsible.



Regardless of when the behavior modification took place, it was irresponsible. Yes, hindsight IS 20/20. However, some folks in this thread seem to think that even in hindsight it WASNT irresponsible. Furthermore, the only point I was originally trying to make is that not all grouper are like that....not all grouper have had their behavior modified in that manner, and in ALOT of places(dare I say most) they are still a challenging fish to hunt.....and completely unlike Ole Yeller.

Seems pretty accurate to me!


And this "this animal A here is cute and friendly so I wanna protect it" and in the other hand "but this animal B here is ugly and nasty so I'll kill it" all the while "animal C here is neither ugly nor nasty to me, so I won't kill it myself and don't wanna see it being killed either, but I'll definitely eat it" is such a hypocritical BS

 

[cvchief]

All you are doing is making my point for me. It was prohibited because it was irresponsible and dangerous. If I fed a bear in Yellowstone in 1950 it would have still been irresponsible....which is why if I decided to feed a bear there today it would be "illegal".....

...

Dave: Its wasn't irresponsible because everyone else was doing it too.

Me: That doesn't make it any less irresponsible.

That is the crux of the issue my friend. It is irresponsible NOW, not then necessarily.

Regardless of when the behavior modification took place, it was irresponsible. Yes, hindsight IS 20/20.

If you qualify it with "by today's standards." Setting aside legal requirements, most people would agree it would be irresponsible to transport small children without a child seat. However, are you then willing to say my mother and perhaps your was an irresponsible parent for not bucking you in a safety seat? Apparently they were available in 1933, even though car did regularly have seatbelts to around what? 1970 ish?

You can't fairly say, they were acting irresponsibly, as the knowledge was not as common then. I believe this is known as presentism.

Furthermore, the only point I was originally trying to make is that not all grouper are like that....not all grouper have had their behavior modified in that manner, and in ALOT of places(dare I say most) they are still a challenging fish to hunt.....and completely unlike Ole Yeller.

I have no problem with YOU hunt. No judgement at all. Personally, I don't think I could catch or shoot a grouper. I recognize that is a contruct in my mind. I seldom eat grouper but it isn't a hard fast thing. I was a little sad when I caught a trigger fish. I put it back as it seems like my 'reef friend,' but that is my soft tender core....

I think I could shoot a snapper. I love red snapper. Ok well not a mutton snapper. They keep following me like a dog on a dive.... And if you are serving mutton, tell me it was a red.

Lionfish unfortunately are here to stay. They flourish in areas that divers will never visit regularly, let alone hunt regularly. They are tasty, but you have to kill and fillet a ton of them to feed a large group of people. Like I said before...Grouper are easier to deal with when it comes to going from water to grill....and they aren't venomous.

See? Killing lionfish is a challenge! I can shoot them all day long. (or I can TRY to shoot them all day long) Its fun and TH crowd generally doesn't complain.

 

[ggunn]

... this "this animal A here is cute and friendly so I wanna protect it" and in the other hand "but this animal B here is ugly and nasty so I'll kill it" all the while "animal C here is neither ugly nor nasty to me, so I won't kill it myself and don't wanna see it being killed either, but I'll definitely eat it" is such a hypocritical BS

Hypocritical or not, that's how I feel.

A fuzzy puppies
B black widow spiders
C pigs

 

[gopbroek]

Hypocritical or not, that's how I feel.A fuzzy puppiesB black widow spidersC pigs

I can abide by that. There are two Chinese takeout restaurants near me; one serves Shark fin soup and one doesn't, guess which one I patronize?

 

[Lorenzoid]

Now I have to ask why next time I am there. I told the missus, she finds it an UNACCEPTABLE mix of English and Spanish!

Never noticed before.

The signage is interesting in that "restaurant" is English, too. Maybe the owner thought the mix of English and Spanish was cute? Artistic license or something.

If the owner's name is, say, Juan, does he introduce himself to us gringos as John? [says the guy who sometimes goes by "Lorenzo" when he's in a Spanish-speaking country]

 

[mmmbelows]

Those grouper have learned over generations of interaction that divers equal free food. Just because you all no longer feed them doesn't change the ingrained behavior that they have learned and become accustomed to. I assure you if you find a grouper population that doesn't have a history of being fed by humans, they don't swim right up and ask to have their backs scratched. The act of feeding them all those years ago absolutely DID turn them into a carbon copy of your beloved Labrador Retriever.

So you believe that grouper are passing genetic rewiring down generation by generation? I think you're taking quite a leap with grouper, genetics and biology there. To say that some populations of grouper are being born with an instinct thought process to associate divers with food puts you in a minority, or you know something that marine biologists don't. I'd be interested in any scientific evidence of that theory.

As for being critical of Dave a guy who just was telling it like it is and being honest, if you're going to be critical of him for doing what was considered normal and without malice back then, then you need to be critical of a lot of things in our history and the people who innocently embraced them, like people who thought acid washed jeans were cool.

Whatever you do don't watch any reruns of any old Jacques Cousteau shows from the 70s, the amount of myth and animal abuse in those shows is astounding from a 2015 perspective.