Local dive shops are really taking the pi$$!

[Genesis]

LDSs and manufacturers could solve this problem if they really wanted. to.

Instead of demanding a fixed price, how about demanding that certain services actually be provided? That is, instead of creating a sham of value, create real value in your brand!

Take drysuits, for example. Why not, as a manufacturer, require any shop that wants to carry your brand to (1) have a pool or dive location at the store for demo/fitting purposes, (2) carry some amount of STOCK in your suits, (3) have an active rental program with a certain mix of suits, and (4) require the dealer to provide the rental suits at either a low or zero cost to customers while warranty repairs are conducted on a customer's suit. Then drop the bogus price restraints.

Now the factory might have to subsidize the last of these, and that's only fair, given that the reason for the cost on the shop in this case is THEIR failure. But the rest? No.

They're "soft costs" and thus drive up the minimum price someone can sell at and remain in business. However, they create REAL value at the same time! Instead of the sham of value presented by the claim of being "better", we now have an objective, level standard of service that dealers MUST meet as a minimum to carry the brand.

At the same time you solve the cutthroat pricing problem.

Of course this requires that manufacturers actually require their dealers to create and maintain value in their brand, instead of foisting a scam off on their customers!

 

[bgbill]

The Curly One once bubbled...
The internet has changed the way everyone does business, some of it good, some of it not so good. The LDS deals in lower quantitys and should make a decent mark up on (decent, not double) their products. Curly

I don't think you understand the difference between markup and profit.

A shop may have a 100% mark up, but he does not have a 100% profit, then you start to get into to gross profit and net profit.

People will always go where it is cheaper, wether it is the internet or a LDS.

They will buy used gear and still expect the manufacturer to warranty it and if they don't they will blast them on the internet.

As far as expecting a shop to spend a bunch of money on inventory for drysuits and a pool, what do you think that is going to do to the shops overhead?

Espescially when people will go to the shop with the pool and try out the suit, see what size they need and then order it from the internet.

Eventually when all the shops close and you try to get a fill over the internet, or need a last minute part so that you don't have to cancel that trip you were going on tommorow, maybe then you will realize the value of a good dive shop.

The problem with most people are they don't see the value in a product bought from a LDS, they only look at the bottom line, but when they need something they can't get taken care of over the internet, where are they going to go?

It really does not matter to me, because I am the type of guy who buys a compressor and everything else I need to do the type of diving I want to do, but the average guy out there will be SOL.



You pay your money and you get what you pay for.

 

[Genesis]

People will always go where it is cheaper, wether it is the internet or a LDS.

Nope.

People will always go where their perception of the VALUE offered for the money spent is the greatest.

The problem is that the LDS has turned the entire discussion into one about price.

You apparently didn't read what I posted above. If a drysuit manufacturer was truly interested in seeing their brand presented as having superior value in the marketplace, the best way to accomplish that would be to mandate that the value be provided to the customer through standards for ALL their dealers that have to be met - all of which would have some cost associated with them for the dealer.

Now, if you wanted to buy that brand of suit AT ALL, you'd have to buy it from SOMEWHERE that you would/could obtain those services.

While there would be price competition, what there would not be is cutthroat competition on price alone, because nobody could stay in business doing that.

Instead, you'd have the debate be about the value of the shopping experience between shops, as a complete package deal of pre-sale, during the sale and post-sale service(s).

Right now its all about price, because the local dive shop offers no service and, in many cases, doesn't even have the product in stock - they're nothing more than an Internet order-taker with a storefront!

Divers didn't build the bad model. Dive shops did.

 

[bgbill]

so you are saying the manufacturer of a specific drysuit will sell only to shops that meet your criteria? and none of them will end up on Leisure Pro's website?

If that is the case how long will he be in business, when his competitors do not have to have a pool and all of the other associated overhead?

The other aspect to look at is drysuits are pretty much the same when you compare apples to apples.

So say a shop lets you use the rental drysuit and their pool and use their employees time and you decide what you want what what size you need, then all you have to do is go home get on the internet and find one a few hundred dollars cheaper.

Divers Supply will send you 2 sizes you try them on, keep the size that fits and when you send the other one back they will credit you back the money on your credit card for it.

I am sure Dick is wondering why his shops are closing all over the state.

Or buy one from a friend, and when it gets a hole in it complain to the manufacturer that it is defective and demand that they repair it under warranty.

 

[cornfed]

Genesis once bubbled...

People will always go where their perception of the VALUE offered for the money spent is the greatest.

Karl, for many people their LDS is the greatest value. For you it certainly isn't. But for a large portion of the population it is. My problem with a lot of what you say centers around this.

 

[lightgiver]

If you find out please please let me know.

If you check out leisurePro you will find that a lot of their stuff is last year's models. As you pointed out in an earlier thread, each year manufacturerer's come out with a new line. Obviously none of the LDS will buy last years stuff. So where do you think they dump all that older stuff? (Manufacturer's want to dump their old inventory so they will only sell in large volumes, the kind that leisurepro buy in)

Except with some manufacturer's that don't mind online discounting, the only guarantee the LDS gets from the manufacturer is that they won't sell any of their current lines to online discounters.

I am surprised that no other online discounter has come up yet. Must mean the demand for our business isn't as great as we would like it to be.

In this area of buying online vs lds, I am pretty much in the middle. I have a few dive shops that treat me well and give me competitive prices. However, on some things, they just can't compete and I buy online.

Before I ever buy I ask a few questions:

1) Do I mind having last years model (somethings the items are basically the same, sometimes there are huge improvements on the latest model)

2) How competitive are my local dive shops in price.

3) How likely will it be that this item will come defective or break down within the life of the warranty (with lds, they tend to pay the shipping back to the manufacturer to get it fixed -- I just have to walk in and drop it off and they take care of the rest)

4) Is this something they had in stock that I could try on first -- I think it is fair to pay a premium on something that I got to try before I bought. Getting the perfect fit to my dive style is worth paying a little extra.

Just a peice of advice when dealing with LDS, deal with the owners. Let everyone else deal with the counter help. The ownders tend to be really active in the dive community -- the reason they got into this business. Also, they know their bottom line better than anyone and will be more willing to compete with online shop's in creative ways.

Hope my two cents helped at least one or two folk out there.

 

[domino22]

OK, I'm a bit of a geek and I generally buy all my expensive tech products online.

I checked out the online sites for prices of the regs and computers that I'm interested in, and looked here for advice.

I understand the preference for going to your LDS, and so today I went to a few to do some comparison shopping.

Apeks ATX50/40 combination: Leisurepro $425 plus shipping, LDS $700 plus tax (7.25%).

Oceanic VT Pro: Leisurepro $600, LDS $810 plus tax, (currently on sale, otherwise nearer $900). The Vytec was $1200 with tax.

Ah, but everyone cries, with the LDS you get good local knowlege. Hmm, lets test this shall we!

I asked in two shops whether the VT pro could be switched for different gas mixes during a dive. One said, yes it can do that, no problem, it's just like the Suunto Vytec. 2nd shop, I'm not sure, let me check with one of the other guys, other guy says no, it won't you'd need the vytec for that. That's tech diving, and for that the vytec's the best computer on the market.

What about the regs. So I ask, what do I gain from getting the ATX200 over the 50. General consensus is, Oh it's a better unit. Better made, better performing, easier to breathe at depth. Will I notice a differnce. Maybe, maybe not.

Then there's the warranty issue. Well, Leisurepro has a great warranty of their own, and you're going to be paying for your servicing wherever you go. And at LDS prices, I could pretty much just buy another one after a year or so and still break even.

Ah, but I want to to buy 2 sets of each, for my wife and I. Surely the LDS will do me a good deal on that. Well no, one says their prices are already discounted and the other said that they aren't allowed to discount because of the manufacturers are setting the prices.

So what have I learned.

LDS's don't necessarily have skilled, knowlegable staff. I'm a technically savvy purchaser, and I learn way more about stuff by asking questions here than by going into the shops.

LDS's seem to cater to resort style divers (me up until now) who are interested in the latest colours, snazziest gear and the most that you can hang of your harness. (one shop was suggesting that I should buy several retractors and get everything off my wrists so it would be easier to get to! So I asked him if he regularly forgets where his hands are (I was grinning when I said that!)

General consensus, LDS's are ripping me off. Bottom line, my money's going to Leisurepro when I next buy my gear. I coudl buy a 3rd set with the differnce in cost and have a full back up of everything.

I don't mean to start a war here as I know this has been hashed over many times before, but I just felt the need to vent. This is the first time I've gone out prepared to spend this much money on dive kit ($2000), and I really couldn't believe the difference in cost would be that much. I just don't see the value I would get for the extra I would pay at the LDS.

Thanks for giving me room to sound off, and for all the great advice and education that I get here.

Cheers,

J.

I understand the money part. Have you checked out "Scuba Toys.Com" ? They match LP price and thier service is awesome.

 

[frozen turd]

I am kind of new to scuba , but not to retail. the ldses that told you two different answers about the same gauges would make me ask a bunch of questions.
1 did either take the time to call 1 800 manufacturer?
2 have you seen any of the sales staff/shop owner at the local dive hole and what kind of equipment were they using(skill level)?
3 if they handle both gauges did anybody in the stores actually use both of them in your type of situation and be able to give an honest opinion?
4 do they walk around the shop acting like superdiver and treat their customers like idiots?
5 a customers question is just too much bother since they'll just buy it from lp anyhow?
6 reasonable attitudes?
answer enough of these wrong and who could blame anybody to go mail order.
even though i am new i do have all my own gear. your question just made me think about where it all came from.
my gear and where it came from:
reg-ist r20 new internet/dealer (ist gives full warr to orig owner no matter where purchased)
bc- used from dive buddys co worker scubapro classic
octo- new lds air2
weights-homemade hip bare lead
fins-used ebay beauchat contact
gauges-rebuilt ebay aeris savant, compass ebay ikelite
tank-new lds sea pearls lp97 (1yr free air sold me)
suit-many, 2 used ones off ebay,just recieved new triple-l from manufact. website, o'niell x7000 dry from lds bankruptcy sale for when i take the cert. classes this fall
masks- mostly used second hand store/just fell into-2 single panes, dacor sillicone,aqualung triview purge(favorite), and just bought new old stock cressi full face off ebay(more classes)
knife-new ebay brand unknown

at least i found a couple of decent ldses in milwaukee area. will consider all the options when it comes time to buy a NEW cold water reg before winter. used regs turn me off. always seems to cost more money to fix em than what they're worth.anybody can go out and buy gold plated underware-but ya still have to change it

 

[ShakaZulu]

The LDS business model will have to change if they want to be competative with the Internet model. Definately a need for the LDS (training, service, tank fills etc), just how they sell gear will change. Actually, the more we support the internet shops, they quicker they will have to adapt.

 

[5615mike]

Won't this thread just die? Can we beat an issue anymore to death?