Medical Privacy Concern

[redrover]

All MDs who are divers should get together with DAN and PADI [and whoever] and establish a standardized History and Physical for divers. They can then take a course, DAN has them all the time, and become "accredited" scuba physical MDs.
Divers under 55 must have a physical with such an MD every 10 years and over 55 every 5 years. You get a little card just like your C card with an expiration [not a pun] date.
The MDs are trained for what to ask and look for. Your privacy is protected and the dive shops get a no questions asked medical clearance.
If a diver has a change in their medical condition in the interim hopefully they would update their card. The diver always has the option of discussing a serious but "divable" medical condition with the DM/Instructor.

Great, no Dive MD's on my Island.

 

[redrover]

I can't believe this is still going strong! This is about our privacy because of lawyer and courts. For you instructors that talk about saving lives my hat is off to you. But be real here when you are out doing an OW dive you are not going to remember that sue has XYZ and joe has ABC and the 3 other student has whatever condition especially in an emergency. If you are worth a darn your training will kick in and you will do what you do, and I am not trying to sell any instructor short or question there genuine care or concern for there student.

And for the bleeding harts this is a extreme sport like hang gliding, snow boarding or skiing they all come with life or death risk as does most everything else in life. So please spare me the every body has to pass a physical and meet these standards that starts to sound like communism. If a person studies the material they are given before class they know the risk period and should be cleared by there DR not because you say but for there own well being.

With everything we do in America it all comes back to lawyers running any body they can into civil court to grab every penny they can.

With this much passion on the subject it sounds like we as a community should look at working together to make a change in the system as to how we handle new divers and this __ __ form. If anyone has any thought on how or who to work with then I would be willing to explore that with you.

Yep, no medical clearance required when I learned to Hang Glide or got my card carrying ability (rating) to fly some controlled sites.
Course it was not like I was making other nearby pilots and bystanders have a bad day if I screwed up and died, like Diving is.
The required mommy note galled me. I chose to view it as opportunity to be aware of medical issues affected by diving environment.
And got over it.

 

[bjexpat]

OT & Hijack...
Has your daughter finished the class? If so, how does she like diving? My 10 year old grandson got certified last fall. We're going to spend the majority of spring break (next week) driving at Monterey.
Richard

She finished her OWD and loved it...she's totally hooked. We have a thread going at http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/thailand/276675-koh-tao-instructor-kids.html

 

[redrover]

...and what does it matter? if someone's brought to the surface unconscious, the abc's are what you do. there's no mention in them about high cholesterol or seizures. 'why' isn't very important in the moment, treat what you see.

There is a 'ding', 'ding', 'ding' for all those strangers need to know personal information folks.

Divers and diver wannabes should be aware the diving environment includes hazards they may be unaware of. I've got some medical background compared to John Q. Public and I did not know any of them.
But as an adult, I cannot recall anywhere outside of a medical environment (such as medical insurance) I have been required to tell a stranger personal details in order to have permission to do an activity.
This includes a number of high risk activities, at least half, far more than learning to scuba dive. I admit though, most did not include having any one with basic first aid, anyone for that matter available if something went amiss.

After the preponderance of the professionals as well as many posters on previous discussions I've read here I have reached some conclusions. One is divers are more prone to resent another human in distress; this includes distress at being distressed. Somehow the uninvolved observers, family members etc are included the person's cruelty in becoming deceased. First time I've run across that one too.

 

[redrover]

...If you are not a Doctor/Nurse or even an EMT, the middle of a dive emergency is not the time to start pretending like you are.

Or making medical decesions?
Would that be something like "I am not a Physician but I play one as a dive professional"?

BTW, I'm not really a person who likes to push people's buttons but some times I can't help it, some people are just too easily riled. seriously, .

 

[SDAnderson]

One is divers are more prone to resent another human in distress; this includes distress at being distressed.

It's not distressing that you're distressed about other people not being distressed about people being distressed?

 

[Standingbear56]

Great. When I see the evidence, I'll believe it exists.

If seeing is the only way you believe, then you are missing out on a lot. If you don't see the stonefish you almost stepped on, then that means (according to you) it doesn't exist? I told you to go to your local bar association and see about cases - have you? Unless of course you don't want to find evidence so you don't have to believe it. I'm not saying this is true of you, but it certainly is a conclusion one can mistakenly come to.

Exactly. As many of us have been saying ALL ALONG - it has nothing to do with class safety and everything to do with lawyers, liability and lawsuits.

Preventing a 1 month pregnant women from diving during pregnancy has nothing to do with class safety? How about the student with diabetes, TB, or suicidal idologies? I've run into all these and many others and they all contribute to student and class safety, since any one of these could cause a fatality underwater? The medical statement is a very useful form for the instructor.

And shame on him. Esp. since the doctor is provided with an "RSTC Medical Statement and Guidelines for Recreational Scuba Diver's Physical Examination" to consider as part of the review process.

Welcome to the real world. There are bad doctors just as there are bad people in all professions.

Why? I treat the form according to the value in it that I see - like any other form I encounter in life. I Recommend others do the same.

What if you are not seeing the full value? Should others be just as blind?

Now...as it so happens, I went and got the RSTC form from a local dive shop. It is exactly as I suspected. Here is what it actually says:

So - the stated purpose of the form is to inform you to go see a doctor if necessary, and why that might be necessary. There is absolutely NOTHING on this form to indicate its purpose is allow a "faster/better response" to you, should something happen in the class. NOTHING! Furthermore, directly above the student signature, it states:

A better and faster response can also mean preventing an accident from happening in the 1st place, and the form has indeed helped do that as I have stated earlier

So, "lying" on the form and going to see a doctor to get the scoop if you need to fulfills the stated purpose of the form - and, as indicated on the form, the student accepts responsibility for doing so.

As such, you of course are willing to compensate me for time lost, $$$ lost and stress involved for the court to say the student is responsible.

Further, I see NOTHING on this form indicating anything about student privacy, document retention, how the shop may use this information, who it may share it with, or anything else.

If you read the form as closely as you stated, you would have noticed it clearly states "Confidential Information" This means it is to be handled according to the laws governing confidential information in your state, county etc. OOPS, I'm so sorry - you didn't see that, so it couldn't possibly exist. My error. Documentation retention also goes according to state and local laws as I have explained in previously.

Privacy issues - indeed.

Only to honest people.

Nude Diver, I don't know your background, and it's none of my business to know. I am also not saying that many "required" forms" cannot indeed be intrusive - many are. Why does a store need to see my driver's license to get a refund? Yet that is now a requirement in many stores. However that's the way things are. Like you, I don't always agree with it. Yes, the medical form is to protect the industry as well as serve the lawyers and insurance companies. However it has also saved potential students from injury - so it can indeed serve a non intrusive value.

Closing for Passover,
Take care,
George

 

[DiveConcierge]

Hi Radcat,

I am a NAUI Instructor.

Here is my take on it.

I totally understand your concerns. However, as instructors and dive shops, we are legally and ethically bound to protect that information as privileged. Due to the nature of the sport, certain medical conditions bar people from participating. That is the sole purpose of the medical form. We need to know in order to keep you safe. We will not release that info or pass any judgment under any circumstances. Lying on the form is a horrible idea.

We carry the forms on us during training. God forbid, if something were to happen, we would grab the folder and contact EMS. We would provide them with medical history so they could treat you most appropriately.

Hope this helps!

 

[NudeDiver]

I don't know your background, and it's none of my business to know.

I agree

I am also not saying that many "required" forms" cannot indeed be intrusive - many are.

I agree.

Yes, the medical form is to protect the industry as well as serve the lawyers and insurance companies.

I agree.

However it has also saved potential students from injury - so it can indeed serve a non intrusive value.

I agree

Why does a store need to see my driver's license to get a refund?

Stores started doing this to cut down on fraud - where people would steal something and then return it for a refund. Also, it keeps store clerks from ripping off the store (without even requiring a customer). If the clerk doesn't have to enter ID info, the clerk can "return" a non-existent item from a non-existent customer and get cash or a "gift card" (which can then be sold at a discounted price and still be profitable). If the clerk makes up ID info, he/she risks being caught, and the made-up info is on file to show that the clerk was skirting the controls in place and helps make a case.

In the case of customers with a receipt, someone could make a copy of a receipt, steal, return, steal, return. These days, with bar-coded receipts or credit card purchases, it seems like it would be less of an issue. I guess the theory is that if someone has to show an ID, even with a receipt, they are less likely to return an item they stole. FWIW, even if they didn't steal whatever they want to return and have a perfectly good receipt, I can see how it would cut down on returns, simply because people don't want to show an ID (due to privacy issues). Either way, the store comes out ahead (whether its less fraud or less returns).

Along these lines - I once tried to buy a bookcase, using my credit card. Store wanted to see ID. Annoying, but fine. So, I showed my passport. Clerk looked at me like I was purple with pink polk dots. "What's this". "A passport." "We need a driver's license." "You need ID. That's ID." Clerk disappears with passport. Comes back. "OK, we can take this, we just need to make a photocopy." "You know what? You're not making a copy of my passport. Kiss off."
Cheers!
ND

 

[offthewall1]

Interesting question with a lot of interesting responses.

While I see no reason to have students fill out a medical waiver (given the fact they can lie on it and we'd never know the difference, or that they could have a condition and not yet know it etc...,) I also don't see any reason why people are so concerned about their medical conditions being known. All it does is allow (in this case their Instructor) others to better react and assist them should their problem come to light and disable them.

I hate Hippa laws and think the entire law relating to medical records should be chucked. When my doctors try to make me sign the forms... I refuse... stating "I don't give a S%&t who sees my medical records, show them to whoever you want." If I put them on Ebay with all the details spelled out, noone would bid a nickel... so like I said, who gives a crap.

If you're famous... maybe the tabloids would want them. Hell, if I were famous, I'd sell them the records myself. That way, if I was ever lying in the street and convulsing, maybe anyone who passed by would know how to help me.

So the final answer for now is - Agencies require the information... and so to be trained by one you'll need to fill it out. don't like that... don't get trained. Train yourself as someone else suggested. Just don't plan on diving at any resorts around the world... no one will let you without a c-card. Perhaps you could buy a card printer and make your own. Print yourself a card from the agency of your choice. If it looks good enough.. noone will know the difference. Call it a fake ID.

Do you see how silly this whole conversation is?

We as a people (humans) seem to worry about and discuss some of the dumbest things, the most meaningless things etc... just go dive... isn't that what we're all here for? See you in the water!

Cheers