Missing Diver at Lake Pleasant

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I too greatly sympathize with the family and friends of the unfortunate victim. To help especially the non-divers among them understand what and why certain things may be happening, it may be worth mentioning some of the background issues searchers or potential searchers may be facing, at least as far as I understand them as a non-rescuer.

The risks to searchers, volunteer or professional, are non-zero. Expanding on some of the things Dive-aholic and others brought up, for depths much below 100' decompression stops during the ascent are probably a necessity for the dives to be long enough to be useful, and for depths below 130', pretty well mandatory. Many divers would only dive under the relatively harsh conditions found here with multiple team members on the bottom and additional support divers for the ascent and possibly descent. For non-industrial decompression diving, the chances of a serious accident are something like 1 dive in 5000-10000, and that's just for major accidents with potential life-long consequences. Also IIRC, in some recently published figures, the rate of serious accidents among professional search and rescue divers can be higher than that of firemen. So, for each day of searching where there may be three or four teams spending an hour each on the bottom (and then maybe another two or three coming back to the surface) there's possibly as high as one chance in six hundred of a searcher ending up in the hospital. The people willing to go out and do this consider these risks as acceptable, and it says good things about their honor and humanity that they're willing to take these risks for someone else. But at some point, the people overseeing the search also start asking themselves whether they're starting to push the odds. Obviously it's not a black or white situation though and everyone would like to bring some resolution to the family, but part of the balancing act is making the call on how much accumulated risk is acceptable.

As a side note, there was mention of local law enforcement continuing during future training exercises. These practice sessions cost both a lot of time and money, and involve a certain amount of risk. But since they have to train regularly (monthly or more frequently) to stay in practice, it's not all that uncommon for teams to continue searches as part of their training.

Another factor, possibly more of an issue for volunteer searchers, is the expense. For deep decompression dives, it's common for the breathing gas to cost $100-$200 per diver, per dive and a day of searching could easily start costing a group $1000 or more. And I don't mean to imply that the family or anyone else 'should' be reimbursing volunteers. Most of those stepping up to the plate consider it an acceptable donation on their part, but the rest of us should at least understand that it's not cost free for them. As another side note, it's also worth realizing that in many places, OSHA-type regulations are such that volunteers are not allowed to accept cash or services (like commercial lodgings) even for expenses.
 
We want to make clear that the last thing we want is for anyone to try to find Tim with out the consent of our family and of the Sheriffs office. We want things to be as safe as possible in any future searching of any kind.

Any and all feedback given here and elsewhere is being taken seriously. Thank you for all your expert advice.
 
Wow, I've been chatting with someone local - I don't know if this is true in Maricopa county (which contains Phoenix and Lake Pleasant). Please chime in if you know the emergency response structure of Maricopa.

Each separate element has their own dive team - the city has a dive team, the sheriff has a dive team, the fire department has a dive team. Then there's a 'swift water' response team, and the same thing - three separate entities. All are fully trained and certifed LE or FD individuals who execute their rescue mission as an additional duty, sort of like SWAT.

The jurisdiction problem rears its ugly head, and for some reason the entities don't want to train together for the common good. :idk:

In Augusta GA, Richmond, VA, and IForget, PA (I forget the name), the SAR dive team is a team of volunteers that trains regularly (at least once a month), and are sworn Reserve Deputies. They may be called out by any entity, and that entity pays for their expenses (only food, drink, breathing gas) while they are on duty. It works great out there.

Does anyone know why AZ has such a 'rice bowl' establishment instead?
 
I understand that it's the manhours being scaled back after Bill mentioned it . . . I just did not understand how you can scale back ONE ROV . . . but now I know it is rented. I wish you guys would see these questions as a quest for understanding, not arguments.

Those of us who are not familiar with Lake Pleasant and its emergency response can only compare what is happening to what we do know. Kind of amazing that a county the size and population of Maricopa doesn't own an ROV . . . .:idk:
ROVs are often rented, operators are usually paid by the day. By reducing the number of days it is in use you can cut costs.

I don't know many governmental units outside of NOAA that do own an ROV. I expect that it is easiest to call a commercial operator.
 
Wow, I've been chatting with someone local - I don't know if this is true in Maricopa county (which contains Phoenix and Lake Pleasant). Please chime in if you know the emergency response structure of Maricopa.

Each separate element has their own dive team - the city has a dive team, the sheriff has a dive team, the fire department has a dive team. Then there's a 'swift water' response team, and the same thing - three separate entities. All are fully trained and certifed LE or FD individuals who execute their rescue mission as an additional duty, sort of like SWAT.

The jurisdiction problem rears its ugly head, and for some reason the entities don't want to train together for the common good. :idk:

In Augusta GA, Richmond, VA, and IForget, PA (I forget the name), the SAR dive team is a team of volunteers that trains regularly (at least once a month), and are sworn Reserve Deputies. They may be called out by any entity, and that entity pays for their expenses (only food, drink, breathing gas) while they are on duty. It works great out there.

Does anyone know why AZ has such a 'rice bowl' establishment instead?

Politics... :wink:
 
Politics... :wink:

:( Yeah, right up there with not observing daylight savings time . . . <sigh> :depressed:
 
I kinda hate it when family members find these accident discussions, but it's understandable. On one hand, we want this forum to focus on preventing similar accidents in others, but still - we'd like to help the family if we could.

I wrote and read a letter to my daughter long ago that if something like this happened to me, for her to ask that searches for my presumed dead body not go to any extremes. Sure search the surface well for me, but if you're sure I've been below way too long - forget it. I don't want anyone risking themselves for that. She still has the letter, but - I'm sure she'd still want to find me for customary burial at the family plot. If it was me searching for her or one of the grandkids, I might forget all about my above ideas.

I do hope Tim is soon found.
Politics... :wink:
Which does include real concerns with regard to command responsibilities, training responsibilities, budgets, answering to the voters and so forth. If you were in charge of one section, how would it set to be told that you don't get your own dive team but will have to request the team from another section - with indirect command, no oversight in training or equipping, but it's still your butt in the fire if something goes wrong?

There are 4 million people living in Maricopa county. I can see why the city, county, and fire department have separate teams.
 
A long time ago, I remember one of the PSD's on here talking about working with Gene Ralston on that Priest Lake recovery mentioned here Priest Lake Search Does anyone know if he still volunteers. He still has an article up about his side scan sonar Side Scan Sonar - underwater searching

Quote from his site, "Law enforcement and search and rescue personnel are frequently required to search for drowning victims as well as missing objects underwater. Typically these searches have been conducted using divers, underwater cameras, and water-trained search dogs. Underwater searching by divers is time consuming and can be very dangerous depending upon water depth, visibility, current, and underwater obstructions.

The lack of good &#8220;point last seen&#8221; information can extend the search area to tens or hundreds of acres. Often the search area is large because there are no eyewitnesses or the eyewitnesses cannot accurately identify the place where the drowning victim or object was last seen. Large areas are often impossible to effectively search with traditional techniques and consequently searches are terminated after several days and recovery is left to chance.

Gene Ralston, an environmental consultant who specializes in water related environmental issues, has frequently volunteered his equipment and time to assist the Idaho Mountain Search and Rescue Unit, local and national authorities in searching for drowning victims. In early 1999, Gene had the opportunity to experience the successful use of side scan sonar to search for a drowning victim."

To the family, I am sorry for your loss. If I had the words to say to ease your pain or to make things better, I would not with hold such words from you. Having lost my own 46 year old brother a few months ago due to a sudden incident, I know it is not easy to let them go especially when you didn't get to say good bye and they are so young. I would urge a word of caution as you move forward in not asking anyone directly or engaging anyone with offer of pay or reward to recover Tim. Should something go wrong on such a dive you could be liable and it would put you in a position that I suspect Tim would never want you to be in. Give it time and chances are better than not that he will be found. In the mean time, you might consider doing a memorial near the site to honor him in his temporary resting place. The diving community is tight and I would guess there are many in the area would volunteer the use of their boats to take family and friends to the area. If you find that suggestion and thoughts unacceptable or out of line, please forgive me. I do not in any way mean to add to you pain at this time.
 
I would like to add my voice to those urging caution. Back in the good old days when I was running an ambulance station... I had to pick up too many people who tried to help and wound up injured or worse. In those cases I didn't envy the RCMP having to go tell the family members of their loss.

It was however my job to inform crew member's families in those events. Some of my crew didn't understand why I ripped a strip off them when they didn't follow protocols. Some of them felt they had the right to make the choice of putting themselves into situations based on their personal experiences and skills. I felt I would be failing my duty to their loved ones and to our employer if I allowed them to ignore the Operating Procedures in the heat of the moment and honorable desire to help. I take pride in the fact that non of my crew were injured during my "watch". It had nothing to do with politics, budgets or power tripping. It had everything to do with wanting to protect as many people as possible.

I pray that the family does find closure whatever that takes. As a diver... I would rather remain in the environment I chose to put myself into than have anyone injured in recovering my remains.
 
Which does include real concerns with regard to command responsibilities, training responsibilities, budgets, answering to the voters and so forth. If you were in charge of one section, how would it set to be told that you don't get your own dive team but will have to request the team from another section - with indirect command, no oversight in training or equipping, but it's still your butt in the fire if something goes wrong?

There are 4 million people living in Maricopa county. I can see why the city, county, and fire department have separate teams.

And there are 139 thousand people in Cochise County, and they still have their own separate teams.

That kind of short sighted thinking spreads thin resources instead of centralizing and concentrating them. Rice bowl approaches are not efficient.
 

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