Dive Leader and Advanced Diver are not much extra in the water, mostly they are about organisational stuff. However qualify you have to do significant diving over a number of years and behave like a proper adult. Unless you turn up in a group and take over the boat you still have to battle the DM/dive op mindset whatever card you have. They are used to dealing with idiots and so will start by assuming you, me and everyone else is an idiot. If you don’t want to be treated like that then dive locally with the same boat a lot. Or come to the U.K.
Modularized Training vs all-at-once
- Thread starter tursiops
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MichaelMc
Working toward Cenotes
I get that you just want to dive. Not lead/assist. Not suggesting assisting, just the cert, which is a fairly simple one, if it is actually helpful. With certs, issued by instructors unknown to the reader, being not always readable on face value, 'someone trusted them with students' sets a decent bar. As does 'trusted deep in a cave'. Holding certifications, in any field, just makes fuzzy statements about ones qualifications. Tightening up the fuzziness or raising the alleged level seems the goal for the walk up to the the dive boat and go on a decent dive problem.
Not sure I have a good answer. Solo and some tech/cave intro, seems a decent path. Or at least the only viable one. Along with Fundies, in terms of readily known cert value. Assuming the person doing the assignment has heard of more than one or two agencies.
But I'm not sure it is solvable. I think the more I've wound up chatting with the shop on the day of, the more they relaxed about me. And put me on the more advanced boat/group. That, in chatting, I assist(ed) teaching Scientific diving in NorCal, did (and assist teach) the DAN first aid for Professional Divers, slightly different from what their DM candidates were doing, didn't hurt. And showing up in a foreign land with my full long hose/BPW/custom farmer john, odd fins, rigged with the same safety gear as their DMs, likely didn't hurt either. (And I know you have good safety gear, just in general).
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
You. You are the magic cert. You want knowledge, which is why certs were not enough, and you ended up here. Think about all you learned (or could learn) when you're diving on these Invasions and such. A competent instructor will be up front about any particular cert only being a "license to learn". You get a tool set of skills that you get to master and implement your entire life. But, no instructor can do your dives for you. They can't even look inside your head and see what you understand or don't understand. I rarely tell divers what they need to know: I try to help them to figure out the right answer for them, instead.
Common sense is not all that common. More importantly, it's incredibly hard to impart to everyone. I was taught as an instructor to do a serial skills assessment. First clear your mask partially, then when fully flooded, recover your reg with an arm sweep, now recover it Elvis style... ad nauseum until you could perform those skills with ease. That still doesn't teach you -when- to use that skill. I used to do the serial skills assessment with my students kneeling on the bottom, because that's how I was taught to maintain control. Most every agency taught that. I've abandoned those techniques and now teach in situ. Sure, I have to teach the skills and you still have to master them, but we're going to do it when you need them and in neutral trim. I'll let you make mistakes and then we will rectify them. "Why is your mask full of water? Did it feel good going backwards up your nose? I'm not looking for just your ability to clear your mask, but for your diving competency. Then, when we hit open water, I want to see you use the skill when it is needed.
Mastering skills is easy. Knowing when to use those skills is competency. Competency is you in control of your dive and understanding your limits. It's a different approach to teaching than many employ, and it shortens that learning curve significantly. You've seen Stacy dive. Well, she's a product of competency over simple skills mastery. Learn/teach smarter: not longer and not harder. If I can do it, then anyone can.
Great post. That program is still being offered, and I'm planning to take it next summer. They also do 3 free single-day sessions called Rocks, Rips, and Reefs; I went to one last summer, and you might be able to time a visit to go to one too. The info is on their Facebook page. From what I gather, the training is very focused on local diving conditions; some of it might not be relevant to, say, tropical diving.
I suspect a student/new diver's attitude and general self-awareness/situational awareness may be more important than the quality of their training.
I have dived advanced sites with people who clearly had no business being there, and I can't get over how they failed to recognize this. I see it basically every time I go out someplace a little more difficult/dangerous, like Farnsworth Banks, the oil rigs, any wreck in more than 60 feet of water, or even just a night dive off the beach. And not only are they not where they need to be on the fundamental skills, they're making things harder on themselves by trying to take pictures, hunt lobsters, etc. (sometimes trying to do multiple things at once.) I don't understand how they're not scared.
I'm not a dive instructor, obviously, but I do train new lawyers at the organization I work for, so I know a little about teaching. And it seems to me that students come in two varieties: those who take charge of their education, and those who don't. Some of my trainees ask lots of questions; some even go to the next level and ask for resources for further self-study. Others seem to assume that if I don't get around to teaching it, they don't need to know it. I think if you asked them explicitly if they believed that, they would deny it, because it's so obviously incorrect. Our organization practices a very specialized type of law that most lawyers know nothing about, with some surprising special rules and procedures, and very high stakes. Traditionally we've given new hires a 3-day crash course followed by a couple weeks of close supervision, and no one really thinks this is enough time to learn everything. (We're working on expanding the training, but it's never going to be long enough to cover everything.) Yet some of these new hires just take what we give them and plunge heedlessly forward, never asking for guidance or doing further research, at great risk to their careers and their clients.
Every diver knows, or should know, that their screwups underwater could kill them. Yet some seem to think if it isn't in the 250-page manual that's mostly pictures and is the same one used around the world, then it's not relevant to their interests. I've met people on dive boats who see someone good and ask, "how do you do that?" or "why do you do that?" and use that information to become better divers. I've also met people who insist, for example, that it's impossible not to stir up the bottom with your fins, despite being surrounded by people who are pulling it off with proper trim and frog kicks. Yes, their instructor could have taught them those things, and maybe should have. But the diver needs to take some responsibility too by looking around, looking things up, and applying some critical thinking skills. No one can be expected to teach another person everything he needs to know.
I have dived advanced sites with people who clearly had no business being there, and I can't get over how they failed to recognize this. I see it basically every time I go out someplace a little more difficult/dangerous, like Farnsworth Banks, the oil rigs, any wreck in more than 60 feet of water, or even just a night dive off the beach. And not only are they not where they need to be on the fundamental skills, they're making things harder on themselves by trying to take pictures, hunt lobsters, etc. (sometimes trying to do multiple things at once.) I don't understand how they're not scared.
I'm not a dive instructor, obviously, but I do train new lawyers at the organization I work for, so I know a little about teaching. And it seems to me that students come in two varieties: those who take charge of their education, and those who don't. Some of my trainees ask lots of questions; some even go to the next level and ask for resources for further self-study. Others seem to assume that if I don't get around to teaching it, they don't need to know it. I think if you asked them explicitly if they believed that, they would deny it, because it's so obviously incorrect. Our organization practices a very specialized type of law that most lawyers know nothing about, with some surprising special rules and procedures, and very high stakes. Traditionally we've given new hires a 3-day crash course followed by a couple weeks of close supervision, and no one really thinks this is enough time to learn everything. (We're working on expanding the training, but it's never going to be long enough to cover everything.) Yet some of these new hires just take what we give them and plunge heedlessly forward, never asking for guidance or doing further research, at great risk to their careers and their clients.
Every diver knows, or should know, that their screwups underwater could kill them. Yet some seem to think if it isn't in the 250-page manual that's mostly pictures and is the same one used around the world, then it's not relevant to their interests. I've met people on dive boats who see someone good and ask, "how do you do that?" or "why do you do that?" and use that information to become better divers. I've also met people who insist, for example, that it's impossible not to stir up the bottom with your fins, despite being surrounded by people who are pulling it off with proper trim and frog kicks. Yes, their instructor could have taught them those things, and maybe should have. But the diver needs to take some responsibility too by looking around, looking things up, and applying some critical thinking skills. No one can be expected to teach another person everything he needs to know.
markmud
Self Reliant Diver--On All Dives.
Hi Ken,
That seems to be the answer. I guess that is what I am rebelling against, being treated like an idiot for the first day. The second day the DM/dive op still can't believe we are good divers, and on the third day they are talking about and excited to do some advanced dives. My wish won't come true--which is a system being created to short-circuit the "oh wait, you are not a Muppet diver, lets go dive some cool stuff".
I agree with you, under the current paradigm, that is the answer.
I have flown over the UK on a clear day, and wished we could land. Someday, I will visit the UK.
I have found a solution and that is Scubaboard Surges and Invasions. We "...take over the boat..." and the whole da*ned establishment. We don't have these problems on the Surges and Invasions.
If not for the Big Kahuna (Pete), and especially cardzard and Roxanne, my wife and I would have dropped-out from diving. Too many other fun things to do and too many fun people to meet around this world. Being treated like an idiot for the first two days of a week long adventure makes the last three days of great diving a so-so experience, on average.
On Surge and Invasion expeditions we Dive and let dive... dealing with different styles of diving.
I will still advocate for change at the dive-op level and at the certification level. Maybe a depression in the dive industry, while other economic metrics are sky high, will force the industry to realize that experienced divers are thier salvation. An industry that churns-out OW Muppets that drop-out after a year is no business model that any business school would approve. Retention is key.
Modularized Training vs all-at-once No offense Pete, but I doubt you have faced the idiot discrimination that I have as you are a world-wide commodity. Your reputation precedes you, at least in this hemisphere. A dive-op has too much to lose by treating you like an idiot Muppet.
Rant over,
m
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
Pros recognize superior divers pretty quickly. A student of mine went to take a cavern class shortly after we finished his AOW. Seeing him in the water, the instructor immediately decided that he had heard wrong, that this student had actually completed cavern and was needing basic cave instead. I got an excited call from my student the first night as he was telling me all he had learned and was learning. I stopped him and asked what class he was taking. He hemmed and hawed a bit and admitted he was getting mixed signals. I called the instructor and sure enough, he was doing basic cave as he concluded I had taught him cavern by his trim, buoyancy and overall awareness in the water. He was even telling me what a great job I had done. Yeah, we have a problem here. Before anyone gets all worried, things turned out great and standards were followed. He and I cave dive as often as he can break away. Great divers are obvious.
A few years ago, we were at a Surge in Anthony's Key. I was asked to teach AOW to two students and we were on the first day, out in open ocean, doing nav exercises. According to them, they "had this" and they only need to check this skill off. Cool. I love confident students. So, we went over how to do a triangle onshore and they began their trek at 20 ft in the shallows. after the first leg, they were probably @ 40 and the second leg found them at 80. I have to admit that I was laughing at what was coming next. The guy adds a 120 to his bearing and is confronted by a wall. He shook his compass, rechecked, spun to look at me and shrugged his shoulders in the universal "WTF". I almost lost my reg. We ascended, did a stop and surfaced to have a chat. I explained that his lack of buoyancy control, caused by poor trim was the culprit and he wanted to try again. He improved a bit in that he only went to about 50ft. Subsequently, I don't start any AOW without diving with someone in pool-like conditions to establish that they have a modicum of trim and buoyancy. No pro worth taking a class from trusts a self-assessment from a student. They make decisions about how you will be trained once they see you splash. Boats are that way too. It's not that they don't trust your self evaluation, but they really, really don't. After all is said and done, there's always a lot more said than done. Yeah, bad divers are equally obvious, but you won't know until you see them dive.
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
Yeah, they are special and probably the best-kept secret on the internet. Most people think "crowded" when they talk about them, but no one who's been there ever does. We limit the number of people on any boat so we don't have cattle boats. It's awesome and you get to meet some awesome people and make some forever friends. It's by far one of the best places to get some mentorship, and you can't beat the prices.
Well, that made me blush. That sometimes is true, but not always. I never play the SB card if I am dealing with an issue. It's just not fair. I am given more latitude on Invasions and Surges, but I also get more scrutiny as well. No one wants to get NetDoc killed on their watch.
The response when I broke my leg in Fiji was as amazing as it was painful.
markmud
Self Reliant Diver--On All Dives.
Hi Pete,
I know for a fact that I am not your "great diver". I have never tried to infer that I was. My wife and I are decent recreational divers. We are trim, we run DMs out of gas on a regular basis (literally OOA twice), we don't beat-up the reef and we take care of ourselves. Are we ready for basic cave? No. Because we don't want to cave dive.
We always receive positive feedback from people who dive with us. Some offer suggestions that are considered and tried. DMs enjoy taking us to cool places once they dive with us.
Don't worry, my scuba diving brain isn't writing scuba diving checks that I can't cash.
My wife likes to be a little bit heads up because it is easier for her to look at walls and steep terrain. I like diving self reliant on all dives, even when buddy diving. We don't conform perfectly.
Full Circle Here: Hey dive-op, check my creds, gear up and lets do a check-out dive. After that lets go dive the cool stuff that I flew 18 hours and spent thousands of dollars to see. Don't take me to 4 beat-up shallow reefs for 5 days straight because there is a newb onboard. Your boss wrote me an email that said we would dive from this list of sites, weather permitting, now lets go dive cool sheet!
On scubaboard the assumption is that any diver who doesn't agree with a certain aspect of diving must be a crap diver. Judgemental? Yes. Closed minded? Yes.
On a lighter note:
We'll be diving with you soon bro! We can't wait. We were hoping to dive more with Stacie, but she is on a different dive team. Oh well! Maybe when we are on the Invasion.
m
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
Dude, I would dive with you pretty much anywhere. I like how you both look below the waves and getting ready. Yeah, i was relating anecdotes of my former students, but I still consider you two exceptional divers, even if you don't.
That was my point. Anyone can talk a great game, telling us how many times they've been on the Doria and until I, or anyone else, gets in the water with you, we just don't know. We just don't know.
That's why I suggested that YOU are your own ultimate certification. Once others see you prep and dive, they know what kind of diver you are. Who needs a cert? This is especially true in the high volume tourist diver locations that we often frequent.
Yeah, more need the dive and let dive mentality. Glad you already have it.
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