My dive incident

[DCBC]

That's like saying "don't worry, the Anesthesiologist is thoroughly licensed and trained and would never accidently turn off the wrong valve and leave you brain damaged following surgery". There are surgeons who remove the wrong appendage. Or the wrong organ. Or write down an Rx that is 100x stronger than intended. Or misdiagnose cancer. It happens.

In your scenario, what can the patient do to change the end result? Like I said, don't worry about it. I don't advocate a layperson to start second guessing a hyperbaric Physician in an emergency situation.

 

[DCBC]

The DM did not take him on as a buddy. He told him to stay close. That is not accepting the diver as a buddy.

Jim, it is the responsibility of the DM to take reasonable precautions to insure the safety of all divers under his supervision. A failure to assign buddy teams and then telling a new diver to stay close is (in my mind) infers a buddy relationship. Clearly the new diver was dependent upon the DM. This was acknowledged by the DM and the DM abandoned the OP. As far as the DM is concerned; I would fire him for not doing his job. The safety of all divers is a DM responsibility.

 

[DCBC]

Exactly. And this is why had the OP received proper training he would have known enough to not do the dives. That he showed up as a new diver without a buddy would have caused me, if I were the DM, to have inquired of the other divers if they were willing to buddy with him. If not there would have been two possible actions on my part, ask him if he were willing to hire a DM to buddy with him or, as I was responsible for leading a group and unable to be a proper buddy, not allowed him to do the dive. Those would have been the only options open to ME as a RESPONSIBLE DM. What others choose to do is their own business. I would rather lose the money for the dive and the tip than send a new diver to the hospital or worse.

...I just love threads like this when so many say there is nothing wrong with the way divers are trained today. Obviously there is.

Agreed. That's why I put the primary responsibility on the Instructor. The DM however is not without error.

 

[gcbryan]

Agreed. That's why I put the primary responsibility on the Instructor. The DM however is not without error.

The primary responsibility is with the diver. Even just reading the book with no instruction, as long as you have good judgment, would have prevented most of this. Given the OP's comments I think it's clear some judgment issues were involved and it's hard to blame the instructor for that.

It appears this DM was doing what is commonly done with these ClusterF dives. Blame the industry not the DM.

That's the biggest problem with scuba today...destination diving where there are frequently no buddies, follow the DM, and the assumption that anyone who shows up can safely dive.

If destination diving were run on anything like an ethical basis there would be no destination diving due to the small volume of available divers.

 

[idocsteve]

In your scenario, what can the patient do to change the end result? Like I said, don't worry about it. I don't advocate a layperson to start second guessing a hyperbaric Physician in an emergency situation.

Well, my scenario was an attempt at an analogy but in reality the situations are not the same because in the examples I gave, the patient is most likely unconscious and at the mercy of the physicians rendering treatment.

In this case, the patient is conscious and able to make their own decisions, they might be experiencing symptoms consistent with DCI, so they might not want to simply dismiss those symptoms because one physician told them they have nothing to worry about, and possibly seek a second medical opinion.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Wouldn't poor instruction be the instructor's fault?



Unless this wasn't taught? And where was the DM all this time? It works both ways. Perhaps the DM wasn't taught properly either...



Agreed. The DM shouldn't have allowed him to do the dive in the first-place. The DM should have insured the diver was returned to the boat safely and not just abandon him. The DM knew he was a new diver. You don't abandon divers for which you are responsible for.



I don't believe people require to be frightened to learn how to dive properly. That's why proper training is needed.

I don't want to sound too critical of the OP, but this little saying comes to mind: "No amount of education (or dive training) is an antidote for stupidity."

I won't blame the instructor for this one. What if the diver embolised or shot up under the dive boat and got chopped up by the props because he did an uncontrolled ascent with a live boat. In my opinion, the diver made some serious errors, Being unable to control bouyancy when diving with a bunch of people in the ocean and a live boat can be very dangerous.

The divemasters on these types of dives do not follow customers. They LEAD the dive and everyone follows them. They are unable to follow people and provide much assistance because they are burdoned by pulling the float. If they waited 5 minutes for some diver to get down, then they would likely get blown off the reef or wreck which ruins the dive for everyone.

The dive guide descends fast and everyone should be able to see the rope as he descends. I worked for years as crew in that area and I made sure that people thought of me as a dive guide not a DM or babysitter. I did not check their air, I did not look for them if they disappeared during a dive and I did not check their weighting before a dive unless their choice looked stupid. Their instructions are to watch their own air, descend as fast as they possibly can without discomfort and keep the dive guide within view. If they loose visual contact, then they are to slowly ascend. If they fail to do this, then their day may get very interesting.

People are generally directed to dive with a buddy, but many choose not to or split up from their "buddy". When drifting in a 1-2 kt current in 100 ft, each person needs to be responsible for theselves, they can NOT depend on another diver to swim back up current and help them. I do not do this kind of diving without a pony bottle.

Sounds like we disagree on a lot of issues, but I am quite sure that in order for a diver to reach their full potential, they need to pull a few stunts which they come away saying "I'll never do THAT again". Divers, especially men, often need to test their limits. Women are less inclined to do so and will chicken out when they feel too stressed. I much prefer diving with someone who bails on a dive rather than someone who gets in over their head and endangers everyone.

Diving is supposed to be fun, when people far exceed their envelope of experience and qualification, it's no longer much fun for me. I've seen too many people get killed when diving around me and I would rather be harsh than understanding when people make bad choices that are dangerous. This forum can help people to make better choices, if they listen to good advice.

In all honesty, the OP's instructor(s) probably did suck, but that still does not absolve the certified diver of personal responsibilty.

 

[DCBC]

It appears this DM was doing what is commonly done with these ClusterF dives. Blame the industry not the DM.

The "Industry" is nothing but a collection of individuals. We each must take responsibility for our actions; including the DM. You cannot shirk your responsibility and point fingers by saying: "Hey it's the way things are done." A dive happens one at a time. If you are in the water, you are the one in-charge of the dive. The responsibility is yours not the industries!

That's the biggest problem with scuba today...destination diving where there are frequently no buddies, follow the DM, and the assumption that anyone who shows up can safely dive.

I have always taken a strong stand against the lowering of certification standards and the certification of incompetent individuals. On SB I have been criticized at length for my position. Instructors have a choice as to how they run their programs and who they choose to certify. DM's have a choice as to how they run their dives. We need our diving leadership to stand-up and do the right thing. Making excuses doesn't cut it.

If destination diving were run on anything like an ethical basis there would be no destination diving due to the small volume of available divers.

Perhaps, but so what? Either it's done ethically or not done at all. Easy answer.

 

[DCBC]

In this case, the patient is conscious and able to make their own decisions, they might be experiencing symptoms consistent with DCI, so they might not want to simply dismiss those symptoms because one physician told them they have nothing to worry about, and possibly seek a second medical opinion.

In this case the Physicians did not suspect DCS or AGE. To be on the safe side they ran a decompression treatment profile anyway. So much for a second opinion. They treated for a worse case scenario, just to be sure.

 

[DCBC]

I won't blame the instructor for this one. What if the diver embolised or shot up under the dive boat and got chopped up by the props because he did an uncontrolled ascent with a live boat. In my opinion, the diver made some serious errors, Being unable to control bouyancy when diving with a bunch of people in the ocean and a live boat can be very dangerous.

I'm aware of the danger involved. "Got chopped-up in the props?" The onus is on the Captain of the vessel to adequately address safety and not be turning the screws with divers in the water unless a safety policy has been communicated and understood by everyone.... Yes, the diver made some of the errors of a beginner, who should have known better.

The divemasters on these types of dives do not follow customers. They LEAD the dive and everyone follows them. They are unable to follow people and provide much assistance because they are burdoned by pulling the float. If they waited 5 minutes for some diver to get down, then they would likely get blown off the reef or wreck which ruins the dive for everyone.

I don't accept this explanation. The DMs role is NOT as a tour guide. He is in a leadership position responsible for safety. This cannot be rejected, because of customer pleasure.

The dive guide descends fast and everyone should be able to see the rope as he descends. I worked for years as crew in that area and I made sure that people thought of me as a dive guide not a DM or babysitter. I did not check their air, I did not look for them if they disappeared during a dive and I did not check their weighting before a dive unless their choice looked stupid. Their instructions are to watch their own air, descend as fast as they possibly can without discomfort and keep the dive guide within view. If they loose visual contact, then they are to slowly ascend. If they fail to do this, then their day may get very interesting.

You are either a tour guide or a DM. If you're a tour guide, you can be a certified diver and have no need to be a DM. If however you are a DM, you cannot take the position of: "Hey I'm just a Dive Guide without any responsibility."

Safety was what was most important to me when I operated a dive charter company. Clients had the choice to dive within my rules or go somewhere else. Divers had a buddy and they were expected to act in this capacity. They were checked before going into the water and the OP would have been observed to have too little weight before he entered the water.

People are generally directed to dive with a buddy, but many choose not to or split up from their "buddy". When drifting in a 1-2 kt current in 100 ft, each person needs to be responsible for theselves, they can NOT depend on another diver to swim back up current and help them. I do not do this kind of diving without a pony bottle.

From what I can glean, no buddies were assigned, nor was any safety check done. This was a new diver. The DM had no business letting him into the water on an advanced dive.

...I've seen too many people get killed when diving around me and I would rather be harsh than understanding when people make bad choices that are dangerous. This forum can help people to make better choices, if they listen to good advice.

... In all honesty, the OP's instructor(s) probably did suck, but that still does not absolve the certified diver of personal responsibilty.

Agreed. However a bond of trust exists between a student and an Instructor. The student should not be certified until s/he has proven that they have the necessary knowledge and ability. A DM must take reasonable steps to insure the safety of every diver under his/her control. This wasn't done.

 

[TeddyDiver]

Yes, the diver made some of the errors of a beginner, who should have known better.

The DMs role is NOT as a tour guide. He is in a leadership position responsible for safety. This cannot be rejected, because of customer pleasure. A DM must take reasonable steps to insure the safety of every diver under his/her control. This wasn't done.

That's pretty much what I think too..