My dive incident

[DCBC]

This is entirely impractical in this location. THe DM is a guide and needs to lead the dive to keep the other people on the reef which may extend over one mile long. If the DM rushes to the surface to escort every clown who can't handle basic diving skills, the other clients are left unprotected by the float.

The DM does NOT need to lead the dive if safety will be compromised! It's something called a pre-dive briefing. If divers "can't handle basic diving skills" this says something about the caliber of instruction they receive.

It ticks me off that people disagree with me when I point out the low standards and say: "Hey it's good for the diving industry." "Why stop divers from getting certified who can't swim; give them the experience." And at the same time note that people are diving without the basic skills. You can't have it both ways...

Leaving a group of people in a 2 kt current for a couple of minutes is a big deal. How do you expect the divemaster to make a safe ascent re-locate the group and re-descend under these conditions in a couple of minutes? In 10 minutes the group could be hundreds of yards away and might possibly be spread out or start popping to the surface all over the place since they no longer have a dive guide. So in order to re-drop the dive guide where the capt thinks the group might now be, he has to drive the boat quickly over the exact same area where the other customers will be ascending.

I expect the DM to do his job! Divers who need supervision shouldn't be in 2 knot current to begin with! Hello?

Your advice for a Dive guide seems like it is right out of a PADI book, but has very little applicability in the real world. These are not some tourist dives with the boat anchored in 60 feet of calm, clear, still water.

You train divers for the real world. If the PADI book doesn't cut it, throw it out and get training that's designed for the real world. I dive the North Atlantic, so please don't talk to me about 60' of clear warm water. There is not ONE diver that I certify that couldn't receive a briefing and do this dive with a competent buddy. If the diver doesn't have the training, don't take his money in the first-place.

The OP still thinks his Instructor was "great", but he expected a DM to babysit him, check his air, and be responsible for his gear as well. I find this attitude to be very common, most all new divers think their instructor was "great" and it takes some time for them to understand that most instructors (that teach to standards and follow an extremely abbreviated course) have delivered instrucion that is often inadequate for real world, independent diving. Try asking a brand new diver what he will do when his BC power inflator sticks in the "on" position. Even though this is a pretty common scuba failure, most don't have a clue. Failure to completely understand what to do can easily kill a diver when they shoot to the surface.

Exactly my point. If the certification standards suck, they are inadequate. Enough of certifying divers who can't dive as responsible members of a buddy team. Like I said, you can't have it both ways.

Ideally, the DM and the captain should have designated that this guy buddy up with someone other than the DM, since the dive guide's responsibilities make him unable to provide 100% attention to the diver.

Absolutely correct. The DM screwed-up big time!

 

[DCBC]

They have not been trained to dive independently and it shows. If a person does not know how to assemble their gear they have no business on a boat. If they cannot do a weight check and properly set their weights they should still be in the pool. If they think that it is ok to be uncomfortable unless there is a pro in the water their instruction has been a joke. They have had their money taken by an unscrupulous person or shop who does not give crap about producing safe, competent, and skilled divers. Their only concern is how much money can they get and how many certs issued is in their file.

I agree Jim. The Instructor has to start doing his job and stop dumping half-trained divers on the dive contractors. Given that this is the case, dive operators and DMs have to draw the line on who is reasonably competent to do a dive, stop putting beginners on advanced dives, buddy everyone up and check equipment before they get into the water.

Sure certified divers should be able to do these things, but the fact remains that the standards are too low and incompetent divers go out on charters daily. The DMs have to do their jobs and ensure safety. If the diver can't hack it, they can go back to their instructor and inquire why. Perhaps this would cause instructors to hold a stronger line. It's not only about the money!

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I agree but the problem is these same divers are becoming DM's and Instructors! It is a self perpetuating system. How can you expect DM to verify the competency of divers when they are barely capable of taking care of themselves. Coupled with ops and resorts that insist on getting the most people in the water as fast as possible. When you have cattle boats loaded to the gills and DM's pushed to get these divers in the water and lead them around and then get them out as quick as they can so the next batch can be sent out it makes for lousy services. In addition they are nothing more than guides in an industry that has degraded training to the point that guides are insufficient.

These people need one of two things. Better training or more competent, better paid guides. Right now these guides have to mainly rely on tips to get by. This leads to alot of trying to be pleasant, helpful, and yes mam and no sir it is perfectly safe as long as I'm LEADING the dive, when it should be- "You are not ready to do this dive without your own pro in the water with you"! "Whoever trained you did not do a very good job". When DM's are held to higher standards and paid better things may also improve. This is why I think that making a DM pay for training when they are expected to shlep tanks, spend their own money on gas to get to sites, and work in the shop is dead wrong. DM's should be chosen for their skills, knowledge, and dedication. If you are going to let anyone pay to be a DM it only serves to reason that a few bad apples are going to get through. No one should be able to just say "hey I think I'll become a DM" go into a shop, plunk his money down and get a card.

I have yet to train a DM because I don't have enough students to give them what I would consider a good internship. When that time comes I will hire a DM candidate. I will pay for his/her air fills when working with me, will charge them a token amount for tuition if I charge them at all, and will treat them as an employee and student. I paid 500 bucks for my DM course. I gave about 150 hours of service in the shop, pool, and on checkouts because I did not know any better. I am not going to take advantage of anyone who wants to DM for me.

I am also not against hiring a DM when going somewhere new. In fact I recommend it to students. But it is because they want to hire one and use him for what was intended- a guide to show you sights, maybe help with lugging gear, and to provide good info. They should not be required to keep the diver safe.

 

[openmindOW]

I agree but the problem is these same divers are becoming DM's and Instructors! It is a self perpetuating system. How can you expect DM to verify the competency of divers when they are barely capable of taking care of themselves.

I hase repeatedly made this point on threads here on SB.

Instructors need to raise the standards for DMs they certify.

This leads to alot of trying to be pleasant, helpful, and yes mam and no sir it is perfectly safe as long as I'm LEADING the dive, . . .

Personally, I hate it when DMs want to lead dives. Leave me alone and let me dive.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Amen to that. I would rather not dive than have to follow a DM around. I can find neat stuff all by myself.

 

[Indian Valley Scuba]

This thread has really taken a perverse turn with regards to DM roles, a divers personal responsibility, and conjecture.

Just dive!

 

[Razz]

I am thankful to the excellent (albeit varied) input on this thread. I thank the OP for even posting this incident. It is in doing so that other less expierenced divers (myself included) have an opportunity to learn more. I have also learned some valuable lessons by my lack of experience. In my case, more training and dive time would have been beneificial even though I had proper certification. I am now still reading Dive Training and Alert Diver magazines. Threads such as this are also very helpful.

-Mark

 

[japan-diver]

No, as I said people were going up separately, even the ones that were with him had separated by quite a bit.

Thank you all for the comments by the way. Even though most are repeating my stupidity - which I had mentioned is the case here - I have gained a lot of valuable knowledge like DMs and dive operators working differently and the differences in dives this can bring. I do not have any diver friends, that is why I relied on the dive operators and told them I was new.

I do not think there was anything wrong with my training as some mentioned. In fact, I had a great OW instructor. It was not being able to put this training to good use, in this case due to inexperience. I was also not uncomfortable underwater in any way at any time.

The only thing I was not comfortable with was going to that depth with Nitrox, which I should be due to my training. (btw everyone else was on it too unless they had air in the Nitrox tanks)

Something even more stupid, is that I also knew I would be more buoyant with the 7mm before the dive. I again could not manage to put 2 and 2 together to add more weight before I needed it.

As you dive more I think your idea of the training you have received so far may change- from your posts it sounds to me like your instructor may be a great guy but he/she seems to have missed stressing a few points that may have saved you some problems. People have posted that buoyancy is explained in the books so you should understand it- a good instructor ensures his students understand whats in the book and important for the course. Did your instructor actually do weight checks with you on your dives and explain their importance so you understand them completely? Did your nitrox instructor really explain CNS toxcity and MOD calculations (90fsw on Nitrox 35 is not problem) Where instructions on diver separation explained? Do you have an understanding of DCS and how/why it occurs? (from your questions on the OP it doesn't seem so)

My guess is that you received a "standard" OW/AOW class that had you read the book take some quizzes and dive. No real explanations or teaching took place. Going over quiz questions is not teaching. Students need to demand better training and when they are not receiving it need to demand money back or a different instructor. Before taking another class interview the instructor make sure he understands what you want to accomplish and skills you want to work on- then ask him how he will address your weak points and fix the problems you have or get you trained to get to your next diving goals- a certain level cert should not be a diving goal. In your case maybe talking with an instructor on this incident and saying I need training/dives to address these weaknesses - how are we going to do it? Develop a training/diving plan and follow through. The class/teaching may not result in another card for your collection but may teach you something that will make your diving more enjoyable and safer.

Some of the best training I have received in my diving career did not get me a card at for anything.

 

[TeddyDiver]

seems to have missed stressing a few points that may have saved you some problems.

I believe he/she missed the "cattle boat" lesson..

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I believe he/she missed the "cattle boat" lesson..

It's not a cattle boat,, now moooooove over, you'ree crowding me.