You got some personal interests involved?
My dive incident
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Jim, I agree with everything you have said. The DM's purpose is however analogous to a life-guard in a swimming pool. People who don't know how to swim shouldn't throw themselves in the deep-end because there is a life-guard on-duty. Unforeseeable problems do however happen to the best of swimmers. The lifeguard is there to help if required. From my perspective at least, the DM's role is one of safety and leadership. This is lost when the role is reduced to being a dive guide. You don't need to be a certified DM to fulfill this role. Divers should however be safe to dive without supervision and be trained to be a competent buddy before they are certified in this capacity. The level of diver training has been so degraded, as have all other levels including DM and Instructor.
Although a DM is not required to insure diver safety, when divers (however experienced) are subjected to new locations by boat, it's a good idea to have shipboard expertise available to keep track of divers, assign buddy teams (where appropriate) and to recover and manage the transport of injured divers for treatment. When the DM goes into the water, much of the added safety advantages they bring to the party is nullified. One aspect of this that I've never been able to fathom is: Who looks after the DM's safety when he is "supervising" divers that require this?"
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Just mho, on this... this thread has a lot of talk about what a DM does and does not have responsibility for. As many people have pointed out a DM is not directly responsible for their divers safety, exactly as PADI and NAUI train (and I am sure with other training agencies). However, we live and dive in the real world, not in the pages of the S&Ps or DM textbooks. In the real world as dive leaders we have a duty of care to our customers.
NAUI issues a Risk Management Handbook I recommend all leadership level divers to read (NAUI DMs and Ins have no excuses as it is in the S&Ps). The goal of the handbook is to cover the gap between the standards and what as responsible leaders we should be doing to help your students and certified divers avoid injury and strengthen yourself against legal claims by adopting the latest risk management recommendations.
Three quotes I want to throw out from the handbook, the emphasis is mine I want to remember some parts of the quotes later in the posting:
If divers know the risks and understand the limits of their training, they are less likely to blame others for their actions or misfortune. Fully informed, they assume the risk and responsibility for their actions"
Informed divers are safer divers
When overseeing instructional or recreational diving activities ask yourself, If something went wrong at this moment, would my actions be considered reasonable and prudent? If the answer is not yes, then its time to review your diving supervision process.
This case sounds like it could be about a couple of things; the dive briefing and a good understanding of the divers own training limitations.
Limits of training is something that must be imparted by the divers instructor(s). It maybe that either this wasnt adequately taken care of or the student diver did not understand their limitations, or perhaps did and has now learned a valuable lesson about pushing your limits when diving.
Certified divers do not have to be supervised like students who are learning to dive. A DM need not observe them underwater, they are responsible for their own safety. This places a great deal of emphasis on the DMs briefing. When a DM assumes certain responsibilities for their divers, such as logistics, broad dive planning, etc it becomes equally important for that DM to clearly state what they are not responsible for. Remember Informed divers are safer divers and if relevant information is not clearly given during the briefing you may not be able to answer yes to the reasonable and prudent question.
During the briefing the DM should not only clearly state the dive profiles, objectives, dive/water conditions, etc, etc but also inform divers that you will only come to their assistance if you become aware of a need for help and that you are not a guardian for their safety.
A good briefing should allow an inexperienced diver to identify that the dive profile and conditions are beyond the limits of their training and experience. A good briefing should remind the inexperienced diver about the duty of care the divemaster has and does not have. A well trained diver should be able to identify that the dive may be beyond the limit of their training and experience giving them a chance to voice concern. A good DM would also open the door to do this in private. A good DM should have the skills to assess a divers experience through indirect and direct observation. If a DM is taking a more advanced level dive (i.e. Nitrox, current, depth, etc) and has divers who are unknown to the DM I would fully expect a direct interview to assess experience. Checking C-cards, log books, and in conversation (When was your last dive? How comfortable were you? What were the conditions like? etc).
If this wasnt taken care of and the dive had ended in an injury and then went to a court of law could a DM defend being a reasonable and prudent professional?
In a legal action there would be questions asked such as: Did the leader behave in a reasonable and prudent manner as a normal careful individual in that position would have? Did the injured party know and understand the degree and nature of the risks and know what they were entering into? Were established standards and procedures followed? Was every sensible safety precaution taken?
Inadequate briefings and diver assessment could easily fall foul of questions like that.
The message is really this; just because it says in a manual or textbook that DM is not directly responsible for their divers safety it does not excuse you from your duty to be a responsible and prudent professional and ensure all normal and sensible safety precautions have been taken.
NAUI issues a Risk Management Handbook I recommend all leadership level divers to read (NAUI DMs and Ins have no excuses as it is in the S&Ps). The goal of the handbook is to cover the gap between the standards and what as responsible leaders we should be doing to help your students and certified divers avoid injury and strengthen yourself against legal claims by adopting the latest risk management recommendations.
Three quotes I want to throw out from the handbook, the emphasis is mine I want to remember some parts of the quotes later in the posting:
If divers know the risks and understand the limits of their training, they are less likely to blame others for their actions or misfortune. Fully informed, they assume the risk and responsibility for their actions"
Informed divers are safer divers
When overseeing instructional or recreational diving activities ask yourself, If something went wrong at this moment, would my actions be considered reasonable and prudent? If the answer is not yes, then its time to review your diving supervision process.
This case sounds like it could be about a couple of things; the dive briefing and a good understanding of the divers own training limitations.
Limits of training is something that must be imparted by the divers instructor(s). It maybe that either this wasnt adequately taken care of or the student diver did not understand their limitations, or perhaps did and has now learned a valuable lesson about pushing your limits when diving.
Certified divers do not have to be supervised like students who are learning to dive. A DM need not observe them underwater, they are responsible for their own safety. This places a great deal of emphasis on the DMs briefing. When a DM assumes certain responsibilities for their divers, such as logistics, broad dive planning, etc it becomes equally important for that DM to clearly state what they are not responsible for. Remember Informed divers are safer divers and if relevant information is not clearly given during the briefing you may not be able to answer yes to the reasonable and prudent question.
During the briefing the DM should not only clearly state the dive profiles, objectives, dive/water conditions, etc, etc but also inform divers that you will only come to their assistance if you become aware of a need for help and that you are not a guardian for their safety.
A good briefing should allow an inexperienced diver to identify that the dive profile and conditions are beyond the limits of their training and experience. A good briefing should remind the inexperienced diver about the duty of care the divemaster has and does not have. A well trained diver should be able to identify that the dive may be beyond the limit of their training and experience giving them a chance to voice concern. A good DM would also open the door to do this in private. A good DM should have the skills to assess a divers experience through indirect and direct observation. If a DM is taking a more advanced level dive (i.e. Nitrox, current, depth, etc) and has divers who are unknown to the DM I would fully expect a direct interview to assess experience. Checking C-cards, log books, and in conversation (When was your last dive? How comfortable were you? What were the conditions like? etc).
If this wasnt taken care of and the dive had ended in an injury and then went to a court of law could a DM defend being a reasonable and prudent professional?
In a legal action there would be questions asked such as: Did the leader behave in a reasonable and prudent manner as a normal careful individual in that position would have? Did the injured party know and understand the degree and nature of the risks and know what they were entering into? Were established standards and procedures followed? Was every sensible safety precaution taken?
Inadequate briefings and diver assessment could easily fall foul of questions like that.
The message is really this; just because it says in a manual or textbook that DM is not directly responsible for their divers safety it does not excuse you from your duty to be a responsible and prudent professional and ensure all normal and sensible safety precautions have been taken.
Saudi-Diver
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I am a certified diver trained to Rescue Diver in the PADI System. A BSAC Sports diver with hundreds of dives ( must do my dive leader some time). I was lucky, I was trained to look after myself and my buddy, your responsibility starts with you and your dive buddy. Most DMs are just dive guides, treat them as such. I am a bit brutal when I am on a dive charter, and get a buddy I don't know. After the dive brief, I grab them and run them through my dive plan and equipment brief, turn round pressures and max depths were going to. I don't do trust me dives. I have had some adverse comments on day boats in Thialand. But have been hugged on a day boat to the Thistlegorm and told I was a great dive buddy. I have messed up big time in Scarpa Flow never even found the wreck and walked back from a boat dive!! Dive within your limits and don't do "trust me" dives.
netwayne
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Aozger...thanks for sharing your experience. Scubaboard is a great place to get feedback on all things diving. As you can see by your thread, there is no shortage of opinions. Most of us can stay on topic but some will inadvertently hijack the thread or go off on tangents. For the most part though, a lot of good information is passed on. Here's a few items to summarize your experience in West Palm and diving in the future.
Top of the list....You and only you are truly responsible for your safety. While you felt a certain level of comfort and extra attention during your instruction probably and maybe even on the checkout dives, don't expect that to be the norm at all in the future. If you happen to get it (extra attention from a DM) while you are gaining more dive experience, it's a bonus but don't count on it.
Always be aware of your equipment and how changes can affect buoyancy. Even adding a neoprene hood to your setup can affect your buoyancy. As at least one person said in this thread, it's better to be a little overweighted than underweighted.
Try to have a regular dive buddy if possible. Someone with more experience and an emphasis on pre-dive checks and safety is preferred. This way you are not stuck with an insta-buddy or DM who won't really keep an eye on you.
Don't be afraid to sit out a dive or thumb a dive early if something doesn't feel right. People can get hurt when they push through what starts out as a small issue and later turns into an emergency.
Gaining more experience and knowledge and not diving over your ability will only add to your comfort level in the future. I certainly recommend reading diving magazines and a book I just picked up recently, Diver Down by Michael Ange is a very good read.
I hope you get to do the dives in West Palm again. They are beautiful drift dives along the reef and a lot of them are in the 55-70 ft range. I saw my first shark there.
Dive, dive, dive!
Top of the list....You and only you are truly responsible for your safety. While you felt a certain level of comfort and extra attention during your instruction probably and maybe even on the checkout dives, don't expect that to be the norm at all in the future. If you happen to get it (extra attention from a DM) while you are gaining more dive experience, it's a bonus but don't count on it.
Always be aware of your equipment and how changes can affect buoyancy. Even adding a neoprene hood to your setup can affect your buoyancy. As at least one person said in this thread, it's better to be a little overweighted than underweighted.
Try to have a regular dive buddy if possible. Someone with more experience and an emphasis on pre-dive checks and safety is preferred. This way you are not stuck with an insta-buddy or DM who won't really keep an eye on you.
Don't be afraid to sit out a dive or thumb a dive early if something doesn't feel right. People can get hurt when they push through what starts out as a small issue and later turns into an emergency.
Gaining more experience and knowledge and not diving over your ability will only add to your comfort level in the future. I certainly recommend reading diving magazines and a book I just picked up recently, Diver Down by Michael Ange is a very good read.
I hope you get to do the dives in West Palm again. They are beautiful drift dives along the reef and a lot of them are in the 55-70 ft range. I saw my first shark there.
Dive, dive, dive!
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Hey Terry, I agree, but that's not how many divers are trained. There's a difference between training someone in tired diver assists and rescue. I fear the greatest majority of Instructors don't train initial students in the latter. Diver's that require to dive supervised are not capable in any way to rescue a DM. If they are, they don't need the DM to begin with. A tour guide should have a buddy (like everyone else) that's competent.
I agree that there is more involved here than what's written in a NAUI manual. DMs are agents or employees of the dive charter company that has entered into a contract with the Client. There is an assumption that the dive operator will act in a responsible manner.
When I operated a dive charter company, I had specific procedures that the DM had to follow. Primarily, he was tasked with the safety of all divers under his charge. This required him to select the dive site, assess conditions and verify diving experience to his satisfaction. Buddies were recorded and assigned as needed, equipment checked before entering the water, insuring that requisite safety equipment was available, etc. In the case where a guide was required, a second DM was assigned.
This was clearly spelled out in the charter document; which also outlined the Client's responsibilities and release. Divers were required to verify certification and experience (log), dive with a buddy and agreed to be out of the water at 500 psi. If you didn't like the rules, we would send you to the competition. Failure to comply put you on the blacklist. Safety first. Dive responsibly or not at all.
You cannot operate a business, collect money from people, take them diving and claim you have nothing to do with their safety! Specific and appropriate precautions must be undertaken. The safety of the Client is the operator's responsibility to the extent that the operator took all reasonable precautions that were necessary under the conditions. Liability involves what you do and what you omit to do.
I'm not saying that it's this way everywhere, but I personally think that if you operate an ethical business, it's a requirement.
Georgiadaybreak
Registered
aogzer, I had a similar experience with DC 3 years ago. My dive buddy was a longtime friend who is about to retire from diving (she's 70ish). I took her diving as a last hurrah in the Caymans. She had a wetsuit on and overweighted herself (25 lbs) relying on weight to get her down instead of bouyancy control. Needless to say, at 70 ft, she sunk like a rock and went to 130 ft in a matter of seconds.
I am certianly no divemaster, but I took off after her. I couldn't hold on to her to inflate her BC, as she kept flailing about. I wedged my fin in a crevice in the Bloody Wall to keep us from sinking further as I tried to communicate our depth to her..145 ft now with all that flailing about. Our air was hitting 1400 psi. She inflated her BC and tried to ascend, but the weights proved too much for her. I tried to assist her but she grabbed my regulator out of my mouth in her flailing about, so I tried to tell her to deflate her BC gradually and drop some of her weights and I would do the controlled ascension. She dumped her weights w/o deflating her BC and shot up like a bubble on a mission. I shot up to catch her fin and pull her back but she kicked me off and went on up. I watched her rise to the surface while I stopped at 30 ft to do a safety stop. That may be poor judgement on my part, but hey, 2 divers at risk for an embolism isn't a good idea...you know.
The crew on the boat was great and the DM saw my friend shoot up and he followed her up too, as he never was as deep as we were. My friend never had any symptoms and seemed fine. She brushed off any medical help and was upset we were fussing over her.
That night at dinner is when it hit her. She felt dizzy and couldn't walk a straight line like she was drunk though she doesn't drink. I called DAN and they responded with a jet to the island and flew her in to the nearest chamber in hours!!! DAN was awesome. However, I was left behind on the island for the rest of the week to dive as a third wheel with newly made diving friends.
Three days later and symptom free, I am flying home. About an hour into the flight my fingers start tingling and my arms seem numb. I am dizzy and nauseas and feel like I am going to blow up. I did a 20 hour no-fly from my last dive before flying, but I guess with the "diving incidendent" of my buddy factored in, I had more residual nitrogen than 20-hours resolved. I don't know....
Anyway, once we landed, I felt better and thank goodness I didn't have to drive home from the airport. The tingling was present for several more days but it did start to subside, but for some reason, I NEVER did suspect DCs for myself. I don't know why. Inexperience with it, I guess. All is well now, but in hindsight, I wish I called DAN for me and gone to a doctor.
Lesson learned: I am by no means an advanced experienced diver but I will be sure that from now on, any dive buddy will agree to communicate properly underwater, not flail but TRUST the dive buddy, and abide by all safety precautions before, during , and after the dive.
I am certianly no divemaster, but I took off after her. I couldn't hold on to her to inflate her BC, as she kept flailing about. I wedged my fin in a crevice in the Bloody Wall to keep us from sinking further as I tried to communicate our depth to her..145 ft now with all that flailing about. Our air was hitting 1400 psi. She inflated her BC and tried to ascend, but the weights proved too much for her. I tried to assist her but she grabbed my regulator out of my mouth in her flailing about, so I tried to tell her to deflate her BC gradually and drop some of her weights and I would do the controlled ascension. She dumped her weights w/o deflating her BC and shot up like a bubble on a mission. I shot up to catch her fin and pull her back but she kicked me off and went on up. I watched her rise to the surface while I stopped at 30 ft to do a safety stop. That may be poor judgement on my part, but hey, 2 divers at risk for an embolism isn't a good idea...you know.
The crew on the boat was great and the DM saw my friend shoot up and he followed her up too, as he never was as deep as we were. My friend never had any symptoms and seemed fine. She brushed off any medical help and was upset we were fussing over her.
That night at dinner is when it hit her. She felt dizzy and couldn't walk a straight line like she was drunk though she doesn't drink. I called DAN and they responded with a jet to the island and flew her in to the nearest chamber in hours!!! DAN was awesome. However, I was left behind on the island for the rest of the week to dive as a third wheel with newly made diving friends.
Three days later and symptom free, I am flying home. About an hour into the flight my fingers start tingling and my arms seem numb. I am dizzy and nauseas and feel like I am going to blow up. I did a 20 hour no-fly from my last dive before flying, but I guess with the "diving incidendent" of my buddy factored in, I had more residual nitrogen than 20-hours resolved. I don't know....
Anyway, once we landed, I felt better and thank goodness I didn't have to drive home from the airport. The tingling was present for several more days but it did start to subside, but for some reason, I NEVER did suspect DCs for myself. I don't know why. Inexperience with it, I guess. All is well now, but in hindsight, I wish I called DAN for me and gone to a doctor.
Lesson learned: I am by no means an advanced experienced diver but I will be sure that from now on, any dive buddy will agree to communicate properly underwater, not flail but TRUST the dive buddy, and abide by all safety precautions before, during , and after the dive.
Thanks for sharing.
I am glad you are ok. When did you take a flight since then and did you feel anything?
I am assuming you never went to a doctor for your symptoms, which you are saying went away after a few days.
My tingling in the fingers was gone 2 days after the chamber, but I sometimes keep getting freak out moments, almost like panic attacks with shortness of breath thinking am I fine now, or is there anything hidden that may come out one day! Though this seems to be getting better, too.
Also, how did you feel when you went diving again for the first time?
I am glad you are ok. When did you take a flight since then and did you feel anything?
I am assuming you never went to a doctor for your symptoms, which you are saying went away after a few days.
My tingling in the fingers was gone 2 days after the chamber, but I sometimes keep getting freak out moments, almost like panic attacks with shortness of breath thinking am I fine now, or is there anything hidden that may come out one day! Though this seems to be getting better, too.
Also, how did you feel when you went diving again for the first time?
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