My First Cave Experience

[SparticleBrane]

Hmmm, I didn't know there were provisions to take cavern students on cave dives for "experience" or intro students on full cave dives for that matter. Clearly immediately after finishing cavern or intro you don't have enough experience to go on a dive one level higher - but somehow you do with an instructor?? Essentially this is saying "trust me" dives are ok. Whoa!

After gaining more experience and actually enrolling in the next level its a different story IMO. You get lectures and dry runs of skills before being exposed to them in the cave.

I am Cave1 with GUE and I definately don't see instructors volunteering or even being convinced to take me on full cave dives - no way. In fact, if I were to persistently ask, I bet I would lose my Cave1 certification for having an unsafe attitude (I'm not asking either).

I know I said I'd butt out, but I'm back.
This is kinda what I was trying to say, but rjack said it much better than I could have. I suppose I could see it from all angles, though.

 

[Jason B]

Maybe you need to actually take a cavern class first to be able to make such statements.

As my instructor told me, cavern is the hardest of all overhead classes. That is where all the knowledge is put out and land drills are worked on. Cave classes are almost all diving and no classroom (did it all in cavern) with the exception of jumps, circuits, and traverses.

According to your thinking you couldn't do cavern and intro together as one class because you leave cavern with zero experience.

Trust me dives - that's funny - most advanced diving courses are just that.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

 

[TSandM]

I think maybe the issue has to do with GUE's not having a cavern course. You either have overhead training with them, or you do not. But even GUE instructors will take OW divers on cavern tours (or at least they did me) as long as they've passed Fundies to guarantee basic skills.

But anyway, line skills, line protocols, light protocols, and lights-out drills aren't something an OW would have had, and are, I believe, something a cavern diver would have had. So what IS the difference between your first instructed cave dive (which I understand involves the penetration unmolested, and the pestering on the way out) and a guided tour for a cavern diver with a full cave instructor?

 

[rjack321]

Cave classes are almost all diving and no classroom (did it all in cavern) with the exception of jumps, circuits, and traverses.

Those are some pretty big exceptions IMO

Roughly:
Cave1= cavern+intro
Cave2=full cave

GUE has no cavern class because they feel like if you are going into an overhead you should have all the skills to safely enter. Not just a portion, in case you do stray below the daylight zone for instance.

There's a 25 dive minimum experience requirement between Cave1 and Cave2. But you're right I have not done a cavern class per se.

 

[rjack321]

IMO the difference between eg:

a cavern diver going in a cave with an instructor
and a
intro cave diver doing jumps with an instructor

Is that in both instances the student has not yet been taught the protocols to address their new environment.

e.g. A cavern diver has never done a lights out exit. Intro divers would not yet know jump protocols. Its still a trust me situation IMO.

Classes should gradually introduce these situations on land and in OW water - before executing them in a cave. Just going on an experience dive one level up (without prerequisite lecture and dry/OW runs) is diving beyond your training.

Now as far as taking DIRF students in a cavern, I guess that's similar but you have to start somewhere. Chicken meet egg.

 

[Jason B]

Those are some pretty big exceptions IMO

Roughly:
Cave1= cavern+intro
Cave2=full cave

GUE has no cavern class because they feel like if you are going into an overhead you should have all the skills to safely enter. Not just a portion, in case you do stray below the daylight zone for instance.

A big exception?Not at all. A cavern diver taken on a dive one level up will see no jumps, circuits or traverses as that would be 2 levels up.

So you were taught jumps, circuits and traverses in cave 1?


Good point about GUE taking folks on cavern tours - Do you see those as trust me dives also and if not, why?

 

[rjack321]

A big exception?Not at all. A cavern diver taken on a dive one level up will see no jumps, circuits or traverses as that would be 2 levels up.

Cavern gets to do intro cave right?
So by extension intro cave can do full cave dives with an instructor?? That's a bad idea.

So you were taught jumps, circuits and traverses in cave 1?

Gaps transiting OW are ok, Circuits and traverses were explained but in theory not really taught

Good point about GUE taking folks on cavern tours - Do you see those as trust me dives also and if not, why?

Actually I do think its diving beyond your training. But has become accepted as ok. It probably is from the client/student persepctive (few drown). But I've seen alot of cave damage in the cavern zone - presumably from guided tours taking clients off the line in particular (tours are the biggest users in MX). So I think cavern tours by OW clients are not acceptable from a cave preservation perspective.

 

[Jason B]

I see you posted again while I was replying.

I agree that if an intro diver just follows some guy, instructor or otherwise, on a jump without first being explained the protocol that was going to be followed, would be a major no no.

I also seriously doubt any instructor would take someone on a dive without giving a thorough pre-dive brief going over these very things.

As for the lights out issue, taught in cavern, done on land in cavern, done in water in cavern. That's all any new student on their first intro class dive will have as far as lights out experience so no issue there at all.

 

[Jason B]

Cavern gets to do intro cave right?
So by extension intro cave can do full cave dives with an instructor?? That's a bad idea.

To be honest, I'm not sure if full cave is considered one step up from intro or if it would actually be apprentice.

I was thinking apprentice would be one level up and I see that as okay as it only introduces jumps (circuits and traverses are taught in full cave). I do agree that going on a full cave dive, with circuits and traverses, at the intro level is not smart so we do agree on something!

 

[rjack321]

I guess I can agree that cavern going on intro level dives is ok. (Although I think cavern can be taught in a single but intro should be in doubles. Doing intro in a single is antiquated IMO)

But...
OW going on cavern dives - not OK (too much cavern damage by non-instructor guides who at least in MX only need to be full cave)

Intro going on a full cave dive - not OK (too dangerous for their current skill level, need the dry runs on jumps etc.)

So this diving one level up concept at least IMO really only applies to cavern grads.