My Gear list thus far - tell me where I can save some money
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chrpai
Contributor
This thread took an interesting turn, and I will agree with Jim (albeit probably not for the same reasons) that I ‘do wish the anecdotal BS would go away.‘ And, it would probably be easier to do just what 616fun did - just give up on trying to articulate a rational point of view. But, there is something about comments in the thread that concerns me.
First, consider some anecdotal BS:
Perhaps, a more notable issue is the reaction of some HOG users to comments made in the thread. Customer / brand loyalty is great. But, at times it seems that some HOG users border on fundamentalist religious zealotry.
In contrast to emotion, consider some facts. 1) Apeks – to name one example (it could be Scubapro or others, but Apeks has been mentioned in the thread) - has a much longer record of manufacturing and use than HOG. So, they have had longer to identify issues that might represent a ‘blemish’ in the design and manufacturing process. That is fact, not judgment. It is not a bash or an attack. It doesn’t necessarily make Apeks a better, easier breathing regulator. It may make them more reliable, because they have already worked out many of the issues that less experienced companies encounter early in their existence. 2) Apeks has a much larger ‘installed user base’. Therefore, they have had a much greater window of operational exposure to identify, and correct, a ‘blemish’ that might be inherent in the design and production. That is fact, not judgment. It is not a bash or an attack. It doesn’t necessarily make Apeks a better, easier breathing regulator. It may make them more reliable, because they have already worked out many of the issues that less experienced companies encounter early in their existence. 3) Apeks has a larger global dealer network, that works with the larger user base, under a diverse variety of use conditions. All of these things are part of what is ‘paid for’ by divers who choose to purchase Apeks. If you don’t want to pay for it, please don’t. If that experience is not part of the value proposition for you, fine. But, don’t suggest that to state it is a ‘bash’ or an ‘attack’.
Here’s another fact. A diver purchased a HOG regulator, which arrived with the HP ports not completely drilled out. He reported that experience here on SB. Yes, that is ‘anecdotal’, in the sense that it is an individual user experience. But, it is fact, not BS. And, it could be reasonably argued, it should not have happened at all, if there was a appropriate level of QC present in the manufacturing process. In fairness, the reg was quickly replaced. And, I appreciate the fact that the owner is very customer-centric. Good for him. Virtually every industry could use more people like that. And, no, I don’t know the CEO of Apeks, or of ScubaPro. Nor do I care or need to, as long as their products are fully functional when delivered to me, and the dealer network handles user issues in a timely, professional, and reasonable manner. To extend the thought, I have never needed to know the CEO of Zeagle either, as long as I could call Jim Fox directly to discuss an issue with a regulator (which I could).
Now, what is not necessarily widely known – the same diver who posted that experience with the HOG reg was PM’d by a member of this board requesting that he take down / delete the post because it was damaging the reputation of HOG. Hmm. A factual account of an actual experience is somehow damaging HOG’s reputation? What are we so afraid of? If fact / truth are going to damage a company’s reputation, is there is a bigger issue?
I happen to be the instructor who certified that OW diver. When he told me he was thinking of buying HOG, and asked me about some very negative comments he heard from a LDS in his hometown (not the one I teach through), I told him that much of the negativity was unfounded. I don’t have a particular bias against HOG. I told him that a HOG reg was a reasonable purchase consideration and there are a number of HOG owners on SB that have reported very good experiences. I don’t have a particular bias in favor of HOG, either. I also told him that I wouldn't personally buy a HOG regulator, yet, because I want to see more accumulated experience over time (and that I didn’t see any particular advantage, other than a lower price). And, that experience over time is part of what I get, and what I am willing to pay for, with a more established manufacturer. It is like buying insurance. Most people never need it. Paying for it is my preference, I get what I pay for, and I have no problem recommending that approach to others. If you don’t want to pay for it, please don’t. But, don’t suggest that to state that viewpoint is a ‘bash’ or an ‘attack’.
Now, there has been some other 'BS' in this thread.
If you know, like, admire, and respect the owner of HOG, terrific. I have no reason to doubt that he is a great guy. If you are a HOG user, and you are happy with the product, and want to recommend it to others, great. Please do so. If you want to argue a value proposition in favor of HOG, fine, go for it. But, reacting so emotionally to other views is probably not the best approach. The insecurity undermines the credibility of the argument. The user 'doth protest too much, methinks'.
First, consider some anecdotal BS:
chrpai:
Great! So, if I dive some Apeks regs more than 70 times in the past 10 months, and dive them deeper than 200 feet, and dive them in water colder than 40 degrees (all of which happen to be true statements, but equally anecdotal), does that make Apeks better than HOG? Not at all! I am sure that the experiences of these two users are exactly what they say – they have used HOG regs under the stated conditions and they performed very well. And, I have used Apeks regs under the stated conditions and they performed very well. This kind of ‘anecdotal BS’ - mine included - is not a particularly relevant issue.Jim Lapenta:
Perhaps, a more notable issue is the reaction of some HOG users to comments made in the thread. Customer / brand loyalty is great. But, at times it seems that some HOG users border on fundamentalist religious zealotry.
chrpai:
I was the one who made the ‘get what you pay for’ comment. These posts suggest my comment was viewed as a ‘bash’, as an ‘attack’. It was neither, but the paranoia in the reaction is truly impressive: ‘. . . when several attack at the same time’? Am I reading something written by a member of Richard Nixon’s staff in 1973. Is there is already a secret HOG ‘enemies list’? What’s next? Issuance of a fatwa of death for anyone who blasphemes HOG? I guess it is fortunate there is no real scuba diving in Guyana.chrpai:
In contrast to emotion, consider some facts. 1) Apeks – to name one example (it could be Scubapro or others, but Apeks has been mentioned in the thread) - has a much longer record of manufacturing and use than HOG. So, they have had longer to identify issues that might represent a ‘blemish’ in the design and manufacturing process. That is fact, not judgment. It is not a bash or an attack. It doesn’t necessarily make Apeks a better, easier breathing regulator. It may make them more reliable, because they have already worked out many of the issues that less experienced companies encounter early in their existence. 2) Apeks has a much larger ‘installed user base’. Therefore, they have had a much greater window of operational exposure to identify, and correct, a ‘blemish’ that might be inherent in the design and production. That is fact, not judgment. It is not a bash or an attack. It doesn’t necessarily make Apeks a better, easier breathing regulator. It may make them more reliable, because they have already worked out many of the issues that less experienced companies encounter early in their existence. 3) Apeks has a larger global dealer network, that works with the larger user base, under a diverse variety of use conditions. All of these things are part of what is ‘paid for’ by divers who choose to purchase Apeks. If you don’t want to pay for it, please don’t. If that experience is not part of the value proposition for you, fine. But, don’t suggest that to state it is a ‘bash’ or an ‘attack’.
Here’s another fact. A diver purchased a HOG regulator, which arrived with the HP ports not completely drilled out. He reported that experience here on SB. Yes, that is ‘anecdotal’, in the sense that it is an individual user experience. But, it is fact, not BS. And, it could be reasonably argued, it should not have happened at all, if there was a appropriate level of QC present in the manufacturing process. In fairness, the reg was quickly replaced. And, I appreciate the fact that the owner is very customer-centric. Good for him. Virtually every industry could use more people like that. And, no, I don’t know the CEO of Apeks, or of ScubaPro. Nor do I care or need to, as long as their products are fully functional when delivered to me, and the dealer network handles user issues in a timely, professional, and reasonable manner. To extend the thought, I have never needed to know the CEO of Zeagle either, as long as I could call Jim Fox directly to discuss an issue with a regulator (which I could).
Now, what is not necessarily widely known – the same diver who posted that experience with the HOG reg was PM’d by a member of this board requesting that he take down / delete the post because it was damaging the reputation of HOG. Hmm. A factual account of an actual experience is somehow damaging HOG’s reputation? What are we so afraid of? If fact / truth are going to damage a company’s reputation, is there is a bigger issue?
I happen to be the instructor who certified that OW diver. When he told me he was thinking of buying HOG, and asked me about some very negative comments he heard from a LDS in his hometown (not the one I teach through), I told him that much of the negativity was unfounded. I don’t have a particular bias against HOG. I told him that a HOG reg was a reasonable purchase consideration and there are a number of HOG owners on SB that have reported very good experiences. I don’t have a particular bias in favor of HOG, either. I also told him that I wouldn't personally buy a HOG regulator, yet, because I want to see more accumulated experience over time (and that I didn’t see any particular advantage, other than a lower price). And, that experience over time is part of what I get, and what I am willing to pay for, with a more established manufacturer. It is like buying insurance. Most people never need it. Paying for it is my preference, I get what I pay for, and I have no problem recommending that approach to others. If you don’t want to pay for it, please don’t. But, don’t suggest that to state that viewpoint is a ‘bash’ or an ‘attack’.
Now, there has been some other 'BS' in this thread.
And, when posters ask what is so ‘innovative’ about HOG, we getseefourdc :
That’s it?? That’s the innovation that HOG has brought to the market? This is the first ‘real innovation’ in a long time? Please say there is something else. (Personally, I like the HOG backplates.) I am delighted that HOG is using a more environmentally friendly chroming process, although I don’t know what that really means, and whether the ‘more’ part is theoretical, or real and somehow quantifiable, or if it just something just copied directly from their website, e.g. ‘HOG First stages have been produced using a DIVE INDUSTRY first and MUCH more environmentally friendly Trivalent Chroming process‘. Interesting concordance of wording. Maybe, it causes less global warming. Maybe, ‘real innovation’ means something different to me.seefourdc:
If you know, like, admire, and respect the owner of HOG, terrific. I have no reason to doubt that he is a great guy. If you are a HOG user, and you are happy with the product, and want to recommend it to others, great. Please do so. If you want to argue a value proposition in favor of HOG, fine, go for it. But, reacting so emotionally to other views is probably not the best approach. The insecurity undermines the credibility of the argument. The user 'doth protest too much, methinks'.
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Thanks for the rationale post. You are correct. I have given up trying to make a rationale point on the conversation. People tend to miss the thought process and you have articulated well everything I was trying to say.
There is one positive to the story. I just got off of the phone with John at NESS and I am the proud new owner of Apeks regs at an amazing price. Don't call him for this deal though. I bought the last two he had
milbournosphere
Contributor
This. Although if you're like me you'll have a ball of a time getting that computer out of the stock boot and into the DSS bungee boot. That was not an experience I'd like to repeat ever again. That being said, the bungee mount is far more comfortable and easy to use than the stock wrist mount. Worth the money.
chrpai
Contributor
Long posts = thin arguments. I get tired of hearing how horrible Hog is compared to XYZ brands from people who've never even dived em. Yawn, boring...
Yes, removing the DG03 boot was "fun". I really didn't want to break my new toy. Also, the length of the strap is crazy!
Yes, removing the DG03 boot was "fun". I really didn't want to break my new toy. Also, the length of the strap is crazy!
Wow. You really just don't get the point of these posts. No one has said they are bad. Anywhere. What I have said is that they do not have the support infrastructure, long term track record, or innovation in their portfolio (a new chrome process does NOT offer any innovation to the performance) . I don't have to dive a Hog product to know this. Offering an Apeks product into the mix at a competitive cost to a Hog was the objective. Hog bashing was never the intent. It's been all the Hog preachers that have turned this thread to it.
Jim made it a point to say that people are pointing out trivial BS about Hog. Now I'm saying the same about all the over zealous Hog owners with an axe to grind with any other vendor.
The trick to getting a pick computer out of a boot and into the DSS mount is hot water. It will make the boot slightly less stiff.
chrpai
Contributor
Uh huh. I posted that after several attempts to state my case. Jim asked directly and I responded. Is my point not true? While I understand quality issues do occur, the was a blatant QC failure. If I made it up then you would have a point.
And I post so much...
My 750 compared to your 2300 speaks volumes....
I'm done with this thread. I should habe heeded Colliam's advice and stayed away. The OP is diving Hog and I hope they offer him all the happiness he's looking for.
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