NAUI and TDI TEC course question

[divezonescuba]

Thanks for the responses.

There are a number of NAUI and TDI tech divers in our area who only have helitrox.

We should not allow tech divers, who are not properly certified to use two different deco gasses, to do so on our tech charters. Otherwise we would be exposing ourselves liability wise, particularly in light of the fact that the potential to use the wrong gas is recognized to be the most common cause of tech diver accidents.

 

[Doby45]

Thanks for the responses.

There are a number of NAUI and TDI tech divers in our area who only have helitrox.

We should not allow tech divers, who are not properly certified to use two different deco gasses, to do so on our tech charters. Otherwise we would be exposing ourselves liability wise, particularly in light of the fact that the potential to use the wrong gas is recognized to be the most common cause of tech diver accidents.

Just be mindful that "tech divers" that have been doing what they have been doing for a while and are then told they can not do that on your boat, may just go to another boat. As stated above you could have an instructor train someone to use multiple deco gases during AN/DP which would be going above and beyond the standard training. But you are stating that unless you have "Extended Range" or higher on your boat you can only use a single deco gas. Not that I have a dog in this fight either way, just reminding you that a lot of people at this level of diving vote with their wallets.

 

[boulderjohn]

Just be mindful that "tech divers" that have been doing what they have been doing for a while and are then told they can not do that on your boat, may just go to another boat. As stated above you could have an instructor train someone to use multiple deco gases during AN/DP which would be going above and beyond the standard training. But you are stating that unless you have "Extended Range" or higher on your boat you can only use a single deco gas. Not that I have a dog in this fight either way, just reminding you that a lot of people at this level of diving vote with their wallets.

The dive operations are thinking about their wallets as well, as in what happens to them if they are sued and they were found to have breached their policies as approved by their insurance companies.

A week or so ago I was in the office of the dive operator with whom I was about to dive, waiting my turn to pay. The dive was to a maximum depth of 110 feet, and the operator's rules required at least AOW certification for the dive. The diver had only an OW card with him. He said he was an assistant instructor, but he was one of those people who believes you are better off showing only a beginning card when you dive. He could not remember his professional number, and when they went to the agency's web site to confirm any sort of advanced certification, the web site was not working. They would not let him do the dive. Yes, they were willing to lose that customer that day rather than violate their own policies.

The Mike Ball dive organization paid a hefty fine when they violated their policies to allow a supposedly advanced diver (Gabe Watson) to dive alone with his wife Tina without dong the required checkout dive. It would have been a lot cheaper to risk losing the customer, and Tina might still be alive today.

 

[divezonescuba]

We lost some business a few years ago when we announced that divers could not drink alcohol on the boat either before or after diving. It was ok with us.

If we lose some tech business for safety reasons, we are ok with that too.

We lost a good friend who died doing a dive past his certification level, we don't need to experience that again.

 

[Doby45]

The dive operations are thinking about their wallets as well, as in what happens to them if they are sued and they were found to have breached their policies as approved by their insurance companies.

A week or so ago I was in the office of the dive operator with whom I was about to dive, waiting my turn to pay. The dive was to a maximum depth of 110 feet, and the operator's rules required at least AOW certification for the dive. The diver had only an OW card with him. He said he was an assistant instructor, but he was one of those people who believes you are better off showing only a beginning card when you dive. He could not remember his professional number, and when they went to the agency's web site to confirm any sort of advanced certification, the web site was not working. They would not let him do the dive. Yes, they were willing to lose that customer that day rather than violate their own policies.

The Mike Ball dive organization paid a hefty fine when they violated their policies to allow a supposedly advanced diver (Gabe Watson) to dive alone with his wife Tina without dong the required checkout dive. It would have been a lot cheaper to risk losing the customer, and Tina might still be alive today.

I did not say the shop was right or wrong for making their decision. This is no different than a charter saying I can not dive my drysuit off their boat because I do not have a drysuit card. Their call and their right to make, but my dollars will go somewhere else. And for the record, any charter can be sued for anything pretty much any time.

 

[Remy B.]

I don't understand one thing, if you are chartering tech Dives tours, I assume you put a time cap to it and a depth cap to it, right ?

Or is it any body go there way, with different profiles and when the last guys are on board then we can return.

The length and depth of the dive dictates the use of two Deco gases.

When I took AN-DP, it was with one Deco gas, but in the course you get to understand the benefits of two Deco gases for long Dives, it is implicit in the course content.

They teach you to label correctly the tanks and to have a dedicated regulator for Deco, and to sling it to your left, the course basically stops there.

______________________________________________________________________________

Sorry to derail, but Since there are Tech Instructors in this thread, I have some questions.

Common sense tells you shall have two different Regulators which are completely different if you use two Deco gases, and add more barriers of identification, and the Left is Lean, Right is Rich, I guess what they don't teach in the courses is barriers and that you shall use two completely different regulators-colors, forms, hoses, clips, tanks size if possible, or do they teach this in Ext range and Trimix ??

If you fail to still put the wrong regulator on the wrong tank, sling it on the wrong side and that you and your body fails to check your MOD, than it doesn't matter if you have been certified with two Deco gases.

I'm wondering what the results of the investigations of the accidents were ?, and how many divers use the same model regulator for the two gases, and how many sling both tanks on the same side.

 

[boulderjohn]

Sorry to derail, but Since there are Tech Instructors in this thread, I have some questions.

Common sense tells you shall have two different Regulators which are completely different if you use two Deco gases, and add more barriers of identification, and the Left is Lean, Right is Rich, I guess what they don't teach in the courses is barriers and that you shall use two completely different regulators-colors, forms, hoses, clips, tanks size if possible, or do they teach this in Ext range and Trimix ??

If you fail to still put the wrong regulator on the wrong tank, sling it on the wrong side and that you and your body fails to check your MOD, than it doesn't matter if you have been certified with two Deco gases.

There are some people who do some of the things you mention. Some people use left lean and right rich, for example, but almost everyone I know puts both bottles on the left. I do not personally know anyone who uses the left lean/right rich method. Requiring different regulators for different tanks is a new one on me--never heard it before this post. I have heard the recommendation of using some sort of a barrier on one of the bottles, but I have never seen it done.

The protocols for handling multiple gases safely are not nearly as standard as you seem to think, and what is taught in a course is up to the instructor. As an example, I have been taught how to make a gas switch by three different instructors for three different agencies, and all three were different.

 

[divezonescuba]

Yes, it appears that most charter boats require tech divers to provide a dive plan / deco schedule. You can't go more than 130 feet were we go. But, you could go heavily into deco based on bottom time with doubles.

I have both tanks on the same side. In my case the instructor wanted to reserve the right side for potential dpv use in the future.

My deco regs just happen to be different. I use an M1 for 50% and a green Diverite for 100% so they really look different. There is an o2 manufacturer limitation with the m1 otherwise I might be using one for 100%. I think that most 100% o2 specific regs are green with green hoses. But, I have seen people / places that use the same make and model, both presumedly o2 clean, for logistical or performance reasons. When I took TEC 50, the 2nd stage for 100% that I was provided was not an o2 specific reg, nor marked that way.

 

[KevinNM]

Common sense tells you shall have two different Regulators which are completely different if you use two Deco gases, and add more barriers of identification, and the Left is Lean, Right is Rich, I guess what they don't teach in the courses is barriers and that you shall use two completely different regulators-colors, forms, hoses, clips, tanks size if possible, or do they teach this in Ext range and Trimix ??

Supposedly all this things have been tried. And people have died. The written MOD with a methodical verification by your teammate and only turning on the bottle you want to breath off of seems like the process that has been found to be the most reliable way to not get killed.

 

[rjack321]

As many have stated, agencies do things different ways and there isn't a "limited to one deco gas" training limit in some while there is in others. You can of course (and probably should) limit your business to those divers who meet your standards and expectations (which I would not associate with a particular card)

Do you have an example dive/profile where you have a mix of one & two deco gas divers on the same boat? That seems odd to me.