Never leave a diver behind

[DandyDon]

I really hate the idea of being left behind, and what if they made another stupid movie about my loss. I had that feeling on one of my early trips to Cozumel - surfaced without the other two of the trio I was diving (hate trios), saw my boat headed home (just chasing a diver in the other direction), over reacted (I do a lot), blasted my Dive Alert horn (learned to always lower my head into the water when I do that - ouch!), and got on the first boat I could attract - an 8-pack of Okies who voted me off. I was shook up for a while over the feeling, and even tho I was wrong - still worries me. I've dived with some crews I wouldn't trust to change my flat tire without checking that the nuts were tight at the end. :silly:

My first experience with an ocean dive was with the M/V Fling going to the Flower Gardens, a hundred miles off the coast of Texas. After every dive, a crew member came to you and verbally and visually checked you off the attendance book. Even when I was in my bunk sick the next day due to seasickness, they came down to my bunk to do a visual and verbal check and made sure I was accounted for. That seems like a sure fire way to account for each individual diver. I know they have a diver capacity of 34 divers. We did not move to the next site until the count was complete.
Seems like a very effective method to prevent any occurances of leaving a diver behind.

Yep, went with them last summer. Very impressed with their system. Each diver is ultimately the skipper's responsibility so the skipper himself talks with each diver personally after each dive, does a preliminary check on the diver's ability to speak clearly, checks the diver off - all after the DMs have previously checked you as you came out.

IIRC, the now defunct Aqua-nuts (Key Largo) had a problem which resulted in their procedure of issuing tokens before the dive and collecting them afterwards. Darrell Stadler, current owner of Island Ventures, captained for Aqua-nuts and was involved with this procedure. He might be able to add details or correct any of my errors.

Worst case possible. They'd once left a male & female couple of attorneys behind on a night dive, didn't notice anything wrong when there were bags still on the boat later as in the Open Water movie, and the office phoned the lawyers office in the morning to complain for not returning the rental gear. :11: The couple spent the night on Molasses reef buoy. I dived with that Op after that once; they were excellent about manifest security afterwards but suffered still until their land was bought for development I think.

On my trip on a livaboard to the dry tortugas, they did a head count and a had board with all names that each person signed before going on that dive and after the dive

Has a nice sound, but not quite - don't like the signing. I liked the Fling's captain talking with me after every dive.

Divers Alert Network has this system, I know someone had mentioned something similar to this earlier in the thread. This makes the most sense to me, as far as reducing the double head counts and what not.

DAN Divers Alert Network : No Fear: DAN Addresses Diver Strandings and Offers Help

A good idea that the Ops in general wouldn't use. Saw the board not being used some on a few boats. It lacked something I guess?

The biggest boat I worked on carried 49 divers and snorkelers to three different sites. We did a roll call before we left the dock then at each site, after the ladders were raised (to prevent anyone from getting back in) the captain and I each did 2 head counts, if we both got the right number of people twice, we would do roll call. I was also vigilant about how the deck was arranged to make sure that missing tanks would be readily apparent to me.

I also highly recommend that as divers we take some responsibility on ourselves to prevent the crew from accidentally overlooking us. The best way that I've heard is to look around you and find a buddy team that you don't know and ask them to make sure that you're on board before the captain moves the boat and you'll do the same for them. It's an easy way to double-check the crew.

Rachel

Very good one, but a bit much? If the process seems to go on and on to customers, it reduces the fun. Safety is #1, but the customers got to have fun too.

I’ve been on many different boats, many different locations and have seen many different check-in/head count systems. They are all vulnerable to failure if the Dive Master and/or Captain does not take it seriously.

No matter the system, an attentive Dive Master and/or Captain makes the all the difference.

Ultimately, the Skipper is The Boss as well the one who takes the blame.

How about a progressive system based on number of divers?

1- Up to a six-pack: roll call
2- Up to 12 divers: roll call AND personal tag system (which I think is a great idea)
3- Up to 24 divers: roll call AND personal tag system AND buddy pair recognition
4- Over 24 divers: nothing... you're nuts to dive that big a group to begin with...

Now try the real world.

Depending on the group size, how about a group photo before departure and then the same after. This would be a good visual. The Capt. can make extra money selling the memory to those that want it.
Well, that won't work now that I think about it, cuz people can just bail right after the photo. Oh well!

All ideas are welcome for discussion, even the dumbest. :silly:

What is the purpose of the 2nd tag? Wouldn't numbered spots work and not have the potential for someone taking both tags (and someone will)?

Yeah!

Gee, Uncle Ricky, we haven't seen you in our part of the Gulf in a while. We still don't jump off the sundeck, but do allow snorkling and swimming during the SI. The Captain is responsible for any snorklers/swimmers in the water during the SI, and (on the Spree anyway), the captain is responsible for the welfare check. Folks will tell captains things they won't tell their DM's. I can't come up with a better system than the one that we use for counting bodies, or I would. I'm sure it will bite me in the a$$ someday, and I will be monday morning quarterbacked, but as a system, it sure works good for me.

Frank

Yep, you may even remember that I wanted to talk with you about a DM after one dive. Wouldn't surprise me as you are a stickler for details. I bet you build great barb wire fences, too: all posts in a straight line, every post equidistant from each other, each wire equidistant from adjacent wires - like we do. I was very impressed, even tho you wouldn't let me wear a dry skin into the house. I'm sure there is good reason for that too, and you have an excellent record. :medal:

 

[ekremer]

I am surprised nobody mentioned this but RFID would be ideal. Every diver gets an RFID tag zip tied to their wrist before they board the boat. The boat would be equiped with a monitor that would read the entire boat at once. A display would indicate by tag a red/green/yellow status for the tag.

Green Defenatly in range of the monitor, red in the water, yellow error or intermediate signal.

RFID are powered by the transmitter not the receiver so they are water proof ( I think). They are small and can be kept under the exposure protection. And the tags are cheap.

 

[DandyDon]

I am surprised nobody mentioned this but RFID would be ideal. Every diver gets an RFID tag zip tied to their wrist before they board the boat. The boat would be equiped with a monitor that would read the entire boat at once. A display would indicate by tag a red/green/yellow status for the tag.

Green Defenatly in range of the monitor, red in the water, yellow error or intermediate signal.

RFID are powered by the transmitter not the receiver so they are water proof ( I think). They are small and can be kept under the exposure protection. And the tags are cheap.

Good idea that won't sell to the industry in the US, and certainly not internationally. Too expensive, too much to take care of. Nice idea, tho...

 

[Teamcasa]

I am surprised nobody mentioned this but RFID would be ideal. Every diver gets an RFID tag zip tied to their wrist before they board the boat. The boat would be equiped with a monitor that would read the entire boat at once. A display would indicate by tag a red/green/yellow status for the tag.

Green Defenatly in range of the monitor, red in the water, yellow error or intermediate signal.

RFID are powered by the transmitter not the receiver so they are water proof ( I think). They are small and can be kept under the exposure protection. And the tags are cheap.

Hey, that is a great idea!

 

[merxlin]

I am surprised nobody mentioned this but RFID would be ideal. Every diver gets an RFID tag zip tied to their wrist before they board the boat. The boat would be equiped with a monitor that would read the entire boat at once. A display would indicate by tag a red/green/yellow status for the tag.

Green Defenatly in range of the monitor, red in the water, yellow error or intermediate signal.

RFID are powered by the transmitter not the receiver so they are water proof ( I think). They are small and can be kept under the exposure protection. And the tags are cheap.

As much as I hate the human error aspect of the other systems, what if the RFID signals are misread and someone shows "in" that is really "out"? Electronics and seawater have never been good friends. How long would it take before lazy DM's just look at the board, see all green, and say shove off? I think I'd prefer the numbered tag system. At least someone has to physically hang a tag once back on board.

And shouldn't there be some recourse for someone that disrupts any system (i.e. answers for someone else during roll call, in this case hangs up someone else's tag)? Should they be banned from the water the rest of the day (much like a missed deco obligation, or in resorts even going into deco)?

 

[Teamcasa]

As much as I hate the human error aspect of the other systems, what if the RFID signals are misread and someone shows "in" that is really "out"? Electronics and seawater have never been good friends. How long would it take before lazy DM's just look at the board, see all green, and say shove off? I think I'd prefer the numbered tag system. At least someone has to physically hang a tag once back on board.

And shouldn't there be some recourse for someone that disrupts any system (i.e. answers for someone else during roll call, in this case hangs up someone else's tag)? Should they be banned from the water the rest of the day (much like a missed deco obligation, or in resorts even going into deco)?

If the RFID tag was the removable, numbered tag you would have the best of both worlds. The RFID receiver would be enclosed and at the exit and/or return location on the deck. The RFID board would also display status in the helm so the Captain would have instant feedback as well.

 

[bleeb]

As much as I hate the human error aspect of the other systems, what if the RFID signals are misread and someone shows "in" that is really "out"? Electronics and seawater have never been good friends. How long would it take before lazy DM's just look at the board, see all green, and say shove off? I think I'd prefer the numbered tag system. At least someone has to physically hang a tag once back on board.

I'm not sure how you're thinking such a system could misread. If you have some ideas along these lines, it would be helpful for the discussion if you elaborated. My interpretation of what was proposed was a proximity reader, which would check that all expected tags were within range, and not a 'punch clock' type system. Now, a possible error mode is if someone was swimming along the side of the boat. They could be physically off the boat and a remote reader wouldn't realise that. No obvious technical fixes come to mind, so there would have to be some procedural one, unless someone can suggest an alternative.

 

[merxlin]

I'm not sure how you're thinking such a system could misread........

Simple error. The receiver reads a phantom signal, or (unless each tag is individually calibrated) a duplicate signal. Or a diver crosses under the boat but in close enough proximity to the boat to read as on board. This system would require constant monitoring, which may be expensive. The higher the cost, the less likely it is to be used. I may just be bringing up very easily addressed concerns, and I am not all that familiar with RFID outside of retail. But I have seen enough theft-deterrent sensors go off incorrectly to worry about the system.

I agree with Dave, a clipped tag that signals in the wheelhouse and physically attached to a numbered board is a great redundancy to the system.

Just my 200 psi, (500 if getting back on the boat).

 

[ekremer]

I don't think you understand how RFID works. The cards each person has does not have an energy source. Instead The radiowaves cause a voltage in the tag allowing it to send out a signal.

Under the boat could be an issue, though water I am pretty sure would block it. Near the boat would have a weak enough signal that the display would be yellow. At any time if the signal is not strong enough to be confident the board would be yellow.

Because the signal being sent out to active the tags are in specific locations they could be fine tuned to prevent people in the water being shown as in the boat.

As for cost a quick search came up this: Barcoding Inc. - FAQ - How much does an RFID tag cost?
$0.50 is not unreasonable. the expensive part would be the reader but that is a 1 time purchase if designed right and taken care of.

A few random thoughts.
RFID is used at least in my office as a key to enter and leave the building, we deal with very sensitive information. If it could randomly be giving a false positive I am sure we would be back to the good old fashion keypad in no time, or even biometrics.

This system would probably be similar to that which the cattle farmers use to inventory their heard. (gah another reason to call it a cattle boat!)
the ones without a battery are very durable. Mine has gone through the wash several times now.

 

[merxlin]

Good to know. Thanks for the information. That makes it sound like a much more viable option, although I am not so happy about radiowaves, microwaves or any other waves being broadcast. We never seem to find out that these things are dangerous until years later.