Nitrox card required to dive, not just for fills?

[Scubadude_LA]

No NITROXARGON for me thank you!!!!!
The people selling Nitroxargon today stole the patent from the company that invented VOODOO GAS years ago.
They are now selling Normoxic Voodoo Gas under the Nitroxargon name. Stuff will kill you. BUYER BEWARE, DON'T DRINK THE NITROXARGON. Demand EAN!

I'm so bored, working late rebuilding a clients crashed server, will the green bar ever get to the far right, I need some sleep.....

Anyway, has anyone entertained the idea that the dive shop in question may have just been having a bad day, like the owner's far away relative in from out of town manning the store front with a check list not knowing the difference while the owner was running an errand (getting a turkey or something for dinner). No excuse, but who knows. I'd would have been agitated like the OP too though.

This nearly idle green progress bar I've been staring at has given me some time to dwell on this whole incident. I hate robot/ahole dive shops, but nobody is perfect either, me for sure.
Somebody please PM me around 3am, my email will sound a Ding and wake me up, I hate computers

 

[Crass3000]

Seems like a cave card should cover just about any worries they would have. Can't imagine a cave diver not being nitrox certified. That being said, I've been asked to see my Deep Diver to dive in Key West. Seemed my AOW sort of didn't carry much weight with them. I just bring the cards just in case.

I can see them wanting to check the mix just to cover their butt. Possible denial of service seems dumb here though.

 

[Ste Wart]

It's an instructor requirement. And A LOT of instructors in Cave Country require it. BECAUSE: We don't want to shorten your training by making shorter dives and longer surface intervals. Can you imagine training at Ginnie Springs on air with no deco and trying to fit everything in. No thanks. No Nitrox, no class.

Yes fine, but my point was Cave doesn't automatically equal Nitrox. Agreed?

And we don't all live in "Cave Country"

 

[Abdullah]

Yes fine, but my point was Cave doesn't automatically equal Nitrox. Agreed?

And we don't all live in "Cave Country"

Just so I understand the context of this Cave card discussion (since I don't have one and never will). You're saying that the skills that a full cave diver has would not qualify a diver to DIVE his own gas?

The PADI prerequisites for EAN Diver are Junior OW Diver, at least 12 years old. There are no in water skills (dives are optional), you read digits on an analyzer and compare it to data in a chart to determine the MOD, a 7th grader can do it. And, you're saying that a guy with a full cave card is not likely to possess the knowledge and know how of a 7th grader to dive gas that he brought with him, so he needs to go home and get his Nitrox card? I am perplexed...

Rather than the DCO saying go home and get your Nitrox card, they could ask him what percent he was diving and what his MOD was, compare that to what's written on the tank, and go diving.

 

[DCBC]

Nope, never used EAN99. Highest I have used is EAN80. So, I'll rephrase my question. Are you suggesting that EAN50-EAN80 are not Nitrox?

Before we have more confusion, I'll say again... Nitrox 50 was established in the first convention as containing 50% Nitrogen (following the protocols used by the military and commercial communities). NOAA (Scientific Diving) defines Nitrox as "as any gas mixture being comprised of an oxygen concentration higher than 22 % by volume."

To answer your question, as far as NOAA is concerned EAN50 and EAN80 are Nitrox mixtures. By definition, so is Heliox if it contains more than 22% O2.

Perhaps the following link to nitrox.com will say it more clearly than I've seemed to be able to:

"Nitrox is known by many names: Enriched Air Nitrox, Oxygen Enriched Air, Nitrox, EANx, or Safe Air. The name "Nitrox" may be capitalized when referring to specific mixtures such as Nitrox68, which contains 68% nitrogen and 32% oxygen. When one figure is stated, it refers to the nitrogen percentage, not the oxygen percentage. The original convention, Nitrox 68/32, became shortened as the second figure is redundant.

Although "Nitrox" usually refers to a mixture of nitrogen and oxygen with more than 21% oxygen, it can refer to mixtures that are leaner in oxygen than air. "Enriched Air Nitrox", "Enriched Air" or "EAN" are used to emphasise richer than air mixtures. In "EANx", the "x" indicates the percentage of oxygen in the mix and is replaced by a number when the percentage is known; for example a 40% EANx mix is called EAN40. The two most popular blends are EAN32 and EAN36 (also named Nitrox I and Nitrox II, respectively, or Nitrox 68/32 and Nitrox 64/36)."

---------- Post added May 17th, 2013 at 08:05 AM ----------

Nitrox is nitrogen and oxygen. Air is 99.998% comprised of nitrogen, oxygen, and argon. Shouldn't air be Nitroxargon 78/21/1?

You forgot Krypton and Neon ... LOL

These are the two references that the US Department of Labor uses (by law) to regulate recreational diving industry employers and work places who use enriched oxygen mixtures in US waters:

2001 National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration Diving Manual (the “2001 NOAA Diving Manual”)
“Enriched Air Operations and Resource Guide” published in 1995 by the Professional Association of Diving Instructors (known commonly as the “1995 DSAT Oxygen Exposure Table)

"(b) Regardless of the diving equipment used, the employer must ensure that no diver exceeds a depth of 130 feet of sea water (“fsw”) or a maximum O2 partial pressure of 1.40 ATA, whichever exposes the diver to less O2 ."

Any US based dive op that employs instructors or dive guides using Nitrox or EAN would need to be on the same "terminology" page as the two references.

NOAA regulates Scientific Diving. The Department of Labor regulates Commercial Diving through the OSHA Regulations.

OSHA regulates the work environment for Dive Instructors and Guides under OSHA 1910.401(a)(3). Most appropriate to this conversation is Item 3 which has to do with maximum O2 concentrations in the breathing mixture: "For open-circuit SCUBA, never exceeds a maximum fraction of breathable O₂ of 40% by volume or a maximum O₂ partial pressure of 1.40 ATA, whichever exposes divers to less O₂." The employer must insure that dives are no decompression dives (Item 5).

All Recreational Diving activities are not regulated.

BTW, if you're a US dive op and not following these rules, you are regulated by the commercial diving requirements with all the accompanying requirements (chamber availability, equipment requirements, etc.).

Actually Dive Instructors/Guides do not need to comply with the regulations itemized for the Commercial Diving Industry. For example, no chamber has to be on-site or available.

 

[scubadada]

You know, since cards (at least the NAUI cards I've got) are custom printed with my name/id on them. It would be nice if the agencies would print all your cert info onto a single piece of plastic. I see this problem as a failure on the part of the agencies involved. Well part of it is their failure, anyway.

I'm not sure what other agencies cards look like, but on the NAUI cards there's a large quantity of white space where the info could be printed. The back of the thing simply has a company logo, and could contain useful information as well if space were to become an issue.

I have a PADI card with Rescue and nitrox on it. It's about 8 years old, I'm not sure they have always or still offer the combo card, I've not gotten any new cards for quite a while

 

[Wookie]

BTW, if you're a US dive op and not following these rules, you are regulated by the commercial diving requirements with all the accompanying requirements (chamber availability, equipment requirements, etc.).

There are exceptions to this, but that's a topic for another thread.

 

[DCBC]

Yes fine, but my point was Cave doesn't automatically equal Nitrox. Agreed?

That depends upon the certification Agency. CMAS requires Nitrox as a prerequisite for Cave 2 and Advanced Nitrox for Cave 3 (Full Cave). IANTD requires Nitrox as a prerequisite for Technical Cave. So your right, it doesn't guarantee that a person with Full Cave has Nitrox training. The Nitrox certification isn't very old. I think NAUI was the first recreational training agency to sanction Nitrox training in 1992. Cave Diving certs have been around a lot longer than that.

 

[nimoh]

Before we have more confusion, I'll say again... Nitrox 50 was established in the first convention as containing 50% Nitrogen (following the protocols used by the military and commercial communities). NOAA (Scientific Diving) defines Nitrox as "as any gas mixture being comprised of an oxygen concentration higher than 22 % by volume."

To answer your question, as far as NOAA is concerned EAN50 and EAN80 are Nitrox mixtures. By definition, so is Heliox if it contains more than 22% O2.

Perhaps the following link to nitrox.com will say it more clearly than I've seemed to be able to:

"Nitrox is known by many names: Enriched Air Nitrox, Oxygen Enriched Air, Nitrox, EANx, or Safe Air. The name "Nitrox" may be capitalized when referring to specific mixtures such as Nitrox68, which contains 68% nitrogen and 32% oxygen. When one figure is stated, it refers to the nitrogen percentage, not the oxygen percentage. The original convention, Nitrox 68/32, became shortened as the second figure is redundant.

Although "Nitrox" usually refers to a mixture of nitrogen and oxygen with more than 21% oxygen, it can refer to mixtures that are leaner in oxygen than air. "Enriched Air Nitrox", "Enriched Air" or "EAN" are used to emphasise richer than air mixtures. In "EANx", the "x" indicates the percentage of oxygen in the mix and is replaced by a number when the percentage is known; for example a 40% EANx mix is called EAN40. The two most popular blends are EAN32 and EAN36 (also named Nitrox I and Nitrox II, respectively, or Nitrox 68/32 and Nitrox 64/36)."

I thnk we are on the same page, i.e. nitrox doesn't necessarily mean that the mix contains more Nitrogen than Oxygen. I have never seen the notation listing the Nitrogen percentage though, perhaps that is adding to the confusion since (IMO) it is more common to list the oxygen percentage.

...and now back to the topic

 

[Superlyte27]

I think NAUI was the first recreational training agency to sanction Nitrox training in 1992. Cave Diving certs have been around a lot longer than that.

Nope, IANTD was the first agency to train in the use of Nitrox, Trimix, Rebreather, & Sidemount. Hehe