Nitrox card required to dive, not just for fills?

[MXGratefulDiver]

Is there any written record of these "industry standards" adopted by the training agencies?

You could probably find them somewhere. They came out of a 1992 symposium on nitrox use ... I believe it either at or shortly after that year's DEMA. I found an article on the topic several years ago, while researching the nitrox curriculum I wanted to teach.

Hell, this is ScubaBoard ... there's probably somebody in here who was at that symposium ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added May 16th, 2013 at 10:48 AM ----------

Stubborn? Me? When Nitrox costs $16-20 a bottle here on the island and I do 300+ dives a year, I'm sticking with air!

Understand your situation on your boat though.,.. you are filling Nitrox and you should ask to see the card. Maybe by the time I get out there and dive your boat I'll be Nitrox certified myself!

I couldn't believe how expensive nitrox was on Catalina Island ... nor how long it was gonna take them to get around to filling my tank. I ended up diving air not because of the cost, but because I couldn't wait two days for a fill ... I was only gonna be there for three days, and I wanted to spend them diving.

A pity, though ... dive profiles there are made for nitrox. Should've seen my friend's face when we came up from the Valiant (third dive of the day) and I told him I had a 27 minute deco obligation ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DCBC]

All shops that I've ever done business with will want to know that the person getting the fill has been properly trained in the use of nitrox.

As you are aware, a NAUI Instructor may certify a Diver for Air and/or Nitrox. A newly certified Instructor does not require a Nitrox card as a prerequisite before he becomes a NAUI Instructor; yet once he's an Instructor, he can issue Nitrox certifications. I believe that the reason for this is that from NAUI's perspective all divers/Instructors that are certified should understand Dalton's law of partial pressures and how increased partial pressures of Nitrogen and Oxygen can present a danger to the Diver and affect decompression. In dive planning, they must identify the gas they are using and either select the appropriate decompression table or decompression computer setting for that gas.

Bob, what I'm saying is that Air is Nitrox. Using Nitrox (regardless of the designation) isn't difficult. In my class, I utilize both Air and Nitrox Tables. I think that it's reasonable if a diver who shows a Divemaster Card, demonstrates that he will be using EAN 32 within the safe decompression parameters and said that he left his Nitrox card at home should be allowed to dive. The boat operator does not require a Diver to produce any certification. He does however need to take reasonable precautions. Sending him back 30 miles to pick-up a forgotten card isn't reasonable from my perspective. I believe that the Standard of Care has been met, but obviously you think otherwise, which is fine.

I've never heard of Nitrox 78

The name Nitrox designates that the percentage of Nitrogen is greater than Oxygen. The original convention listed "Nitrox 68" to contain 68% Nitrogen and 32% Oxygen. Nitrox 78 was Air. Because both Air and EAN 32 are both "Nitrox mixtures," the convention classifications were changed to be focused on the Oxygen percentage rather than the Nitrogen content. Nitrox 68 became Enriched Air Nitrox (EAN) 32. In other words having a greater O2 content than Air and highlighting the O2 percentage.

If you use the word Nitrox, you either call it by the percentage of Nitrogen (Nitrox 78) or use an EAN designation and list the O2 percentage. In the recreational world Nitrox I or II is also used. The term Oxygen Enriched Air (OEN) is used by the Scientific community followed by the Oxygen percentage.

As previously noted, there is no requirement for nitrox training in order to receive a Full Cave certification

Yes as a CMAS Cave 3 Instructor (Instructor/Trainer) I'm aware of that. It does however indicate that anyone with a Full Cave Diver designation has completed extensive dive training and I submit that if he suggests that he left his Nitrox card at home, that it's reasonable to assume that this is likely the case.

 

[Wookie]

Stubborn? Me? When Nitrox costs $16-20 a bottle here on the island and I do 300+ dives a year, I'm sticking with air!

Understand your situation on your boat though.,.. you are filling Nitrox and you should ask to see the card. Maybe by the time I get out there and dive your boat I'll be Nitrox certified myself!

We'll do a nitrox resort course with you, Dr. Bill. Won't cost you a thing. You see, I'm a firm believer in nitrox for repetitive liveaboard type diving, so much so that I'll bear the cost myself. I'm guessing you're a 5 a day kind of guy....

 

[guyharrisonphoto]

It's seems to be a scam to me and I think you have a right to be ticked. The guy was being an *ssho**.

If Dive Charter Operators (DCO) want to take on the responsibility that Divers are safe to dive, the last thing I would be worried about is the type of gas they're using. ..

Please see my description of the actual diving conditions and profiles in this area. The gas mixture is, very much, one of the "first things", maybe THE "first thing" to worry about. We are not talking about a "nanny" operation, but one that caters to divers making these very advanced recreational dives. When unfamiliar divers show up, with an unknown mix and unknown training, a little inquiry is not out of line, and they were at least flexible enough to make a judgment based on the training certifications they were shown.

 

[SandyRobinson]

....Nitrox costs $16-20 a bottle here on the island and I do 300+ dives a year, I'm sticking with air!

Damn, O2 sure is expensive in California Don't blame you - I would dive air too. Pretty envious of 300+ dives a year.

 

[DCBC]

...We are not talking about a "nanny" operation, but one that caters to divers making these very advanced recreational dives. When unfamiliar divers show up, with an unknown mix and unknown training...

I suppose it depends upon how the DCO sees his role. Are they a Dive Charter Operator, and/or do they actively manage the dive (provide DM's, O2, First-Aid, etc.)? To what extent are the Diver's responsible for the diving process? Do they have a Waiver of liability? What does this specify? Again, what role have they defined for the Diver and the company?

It also depends upon your definition of "advanced?" An "advanced dive" would reasonably require an advanced certification? Is this also a requirement? Do they have specified policies on what level of training is required for each dive type, or is this subjective?

...a little inquiry is not out of line, and they were at least flexible enough to make a judgment based on the training certifications they were shown.

Absolutely correct; a little inquiry is never out of line. I tend to believe that it's sometimes good business to do more than just a little.

Having been a Charter Operator, I understand the importance of not putting a client into a foreseeable and potential hazardous situation. As an operator, I've refused client's for what I reasonably believed was inadequate training. Given the circumstances of this case (as I understand it), they had an opportunity to question the customer on his knowledge. If he satisfied them, then it would be (in my mind) reasonable for him to dive. This wasn't however the case. The Client clearly demonstrated that he was an experienced diver who simply forgot his card. It would only take a few minutes, to confirm or deny his safe use of Nitrox. The Diver in-question was likely experienced enough to run this dive; not only participate in it.

Ultimately however, what I think doesn't mean squat. The owner calls the shots. I think however, that they lost one customer and possibly more. Perhaps this could have been avoided by handling things differently...

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

As you are aware, a NAUI Instructor may certify a Diver for Air and/or Nitrox. A newly certified Instructor does not require a Nitrox card as a prerequisite before he becomes a NAUI Instructor; yet once he's an Instructor, he can issue Nitrox certifications. I believe that the reason for this is that from NAUI's perspective all divers/Instructors that are certified should understand Dalton's law of partial pressures and how increased partial pressures of Nitrogen and Oxygen can present a danger to the Diver and affect decompression. In dive planning, they must identify the gas they are using and either select the appropriate decompression table or decompression computer setting for that gas.

I'm aware of no such thing. Unless standards have changed without my knowledge ... which I highly doubt ... nitrox is not one of the specialty classes a NAUI instructor is automatically allowed to teach. He must take a test and have done a mininum of 15 nitrox dives first. Personally, I believe this is a ridiculously low standard ... but it's not at all what you just claimed.

Bob, what I'm saying is that Air is Nitrox. Using Nitrox (regardless of the designation) isn't difficult. In my class, I utilize both Air and Nitrox Tables. I think that it's reasonable if a diver who shows a Divemaster Card, demonstrates that he will be using EAN 32 within the safe decompression parameters and said that he left his Nitrox card at home should be allowed to dive. The boat operator does not require a Diver to produce any certification. He does however need to take reasonable precautions. Sending him back 30 miles to pick-up a forgotten card isn't reasonable from my perspective. I believe that the Standard of Care has been met, but obviously you think otherwise, which is fine.

I have no idea how you came to that conclusion, based on what I wrote. I stated what is ... and offered no opinions whatsoever on what I think.

The name Nitrox designates that the percentage of Nitrogen is greater than Oxygen.

That's not true ... EAN50 is nitrox. EAN80 is nitrox. And yes ... EAN21 is nitrox as well.

The original convention listed "Nitrox 68" to contain 68% Nitrogen and 32% Oxygen. Nitrox 78 was Air. Because both Air and EAN 32 are both "Nitrox mixtures," the convention classifications were changed to be focused on the Oxygen percentage rather than the Nitrogen content. Nitrox 68 became Enriched Air Nitrox (EAN) 32. In other words having a greater O2 content than Air and highlighting the O2 percentage.

If you use the word Nitrox, you either call it by the percentage of Nitrogen (Nitrox 78) or use an EAN designation and list the O2 percentage. In the recreational world Nitrox I or II is also used. The term Oxygen Enriched Air (OEN) is used by the Scientific community followed by the Oxygen percentage.

I've never seen nitrox conventions that list the percentage of nitrogen ... not in any literature on the subject I've ever read. Can you produce a link to one that uses it?

I'm not suggesting it isn't so ... I'm sure there are lots of conventions out there worldwide that I'm not familiar with ... this just happens to be one I've never seen used before.

Yes as a CMAS Cave 3 Instructor (Instructor/Trainer) I'm aware of that. It does however indicate that anyone with a Full Cave Diver designation has completed extensive dive training and I submit that if he suggests that he left his Nitrox card at home, that it's reasonable to assume that this is likely the case.

Granted, Nitrox is probably the easiest class in scuba diving. Using it's easy ... breathe in, breathe out. But a full cave card doesn't say anything about whether you've even bothered to read an article on the topic. It has no bearing whatsoever on the subject. It's not reasonable to assume that someone bearing a card that doesn't require nitrox use will know anything at all about how to analyze a tank, or interpret the results. Granted, there are more reasonable ways to deal with the issue than what the OP described ... which I have already alluded to in previous posts. But presenting a cave card isn't one of them. Now, if he had a GUE Fundies card, that'd be different ... since the class certifies you to use EAN32.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DCBC]

I'm aware of no such thing. Unless standards have changed without my knowledge ... which I highly doubt ... nitrox is not one of the specialty classes a NAUI instructor is automatically allowed to teach. He must take a test and have done a mininum of 15 nitrox dives first. Personally, I believe this is a ridiculously low standard ... but it's not at all what you just claimed.

Sorry Bob, you're incorrect. NAUI Instructor's Manual 2.44 and 2.45 (top of the page) "May be taught by any active-status NAUI Instructor."

That's not true ... EAN50 is nitrox. EAN80 is nitrox. And yes ... EAN21 is nitrox as well.

What I've said IS true Bob. What you choose to believe is up to you. Perhaps you might ask yourself why the term Nitrox I is used and EAN32 isn't called Nitrox 32? It's just a terminology thing when you refer to the percentages that the gas is made up of.

Mixed-gases are based on: Hydrogen (H2): hydreliox and hydrox; Neon (Ne): Neox and Neoquad; Argon (Ar) Argox and argonox; Xeon (Xe): Xenon and Xenonox; Krypton (Kr): Kryptonox. The principal gas is listed first with the lesser gas mentioned later in the term.

As far as reference is concerned, I'd suggest an older NOAA Manual. The Navy and Commercial industries don't use the EAN terminology either. The only exception to this is with the medical community that will use the term Helio21 (indicating 21% O2). In Diving, Helium mixtures are usually referred to as a 80/20 mix (for example) the first number being Helium.

....Granted, there are more reasonable ways to deal with the issue than what the OP described ... which I have already alluded to in previous posts.

Agreed. That was the essence of what I was saying. A Divemaster with full cave, wanting to use Nitrox, saying that he neglected to bring his Nitrox card with him. I would question him to ascertain his understanding and if everything was OK, let him proceed on the dive. I think that this is reasonable.

 

[nimoh]

The name Nitrox designates that the percentage of Nitrogen is greater than Oxygen. The original convention listed "Nitrox 68" to contain 68% Nitrogen and 32% Oxygen. Nitrox 78 was Air. Because both Air and EAN 32 are both "Nitrox mixtures," the convention classifications were changed to be focused on the Oxygen percentage rather than the Nitrogen content. Nitrox 68 became Enriched Air Nitrox (EAN) 32. In other words having a greater O2 content than Air and highlighting the O2 percentage.

What I've said IS true Bob. What you choose to believe is up to you. Perhaps you might ask yourself why the term Nitrox I is used and EAN32 isn't called Nitrox 32? It's just a terminology thing when you refer to the percentages that the gas is made up of.

Mixed-gases are based on: Hydrogen (H2): hydreliox and hydrox; Neon (Ne): Neox and Neoquad; Argon (Ar) Argox and argonox; Xeon (Xe): Xenon and Xenonox; Krypton (Kr): Kryptonox. The principal gas is listed first with the lesser gas mentioned later in the term.

As far as reference is concerned, I'd suggest an older NOAA Manual. The Navy and Commercial industries don't use the EAN terminology either. The only exception to this is with the medical community that will use the term Helio21 (indicating 21% O2). In Diving, Helium mixtures are usually referred to as a 80/20 mix (for example) the first number being Helium.

just curious, are you saying that EAN50-EAN99 are not Nitrox?

 

[iluvtheocean]

i would say that any % of oxygen & nitrogen is technically nitrox.

Definition of nitrox

[h=3]noun[/h] [mass noun]

• a mixture of oxygen and nitrogen used as a breathing gas by divers, especially a mixture containing a lower proportion of nitrogen than is normally present in air, to reduce the risk of decompression sickness.

[h=2]Origin:[/h] 1980s: from nitrogen + oxygen

as defined by the Oxford Dictionary. Definition of nitrox in Oxford Dictionaries (British & World English)


although of course the whole thread is off topic at this point. I think it was originally about the fact that the charter didn't specify either over the phone or on their website that they would require a nitrox cert or higher to dive nitrox on their boat if you brought the tank.

i still it's up to the charter what they require -- but state it up front. It's really easy to put it in a FAQ etc on your website. If the charter is provided Nitrox, I would assume needing the correct cert is implied. I did check out the Wookie's site and right in the FAQ -- he actually asks for logbook and cards inq FAQ- what he checks, if he checks is another story. and this for the rec charters.

Dive Gear
Don’t forget your log book and C-card!

Tanks?
The boat provides an aluminum 80 for all divers. Air or 32%
nitrox is included in the charter price. If bringing a personal
tank, it should be brought full and ready to dive.