Nitrox card required to dive, not just for fills?

[drbill]

Nitrox? What's that. I only dive the gas God provided us... and I'm a geezer!

Seriously, the tanks had been filled elsewhere. I don't see the reason for the shop crew to ask for your card. Even if there were any incident with legal consequences, I can't see how they would be liable for gas in a tank filled elsewhere (but then I don't get to court very often).

 

[redacted]

Nitrox? What's that. I only dive the gas God provided us... and I'm a geezer!

Seriously, the tanks had been filled elsewhere. I don't see the reason for the shop crew to ask for your card. Even if there were any incident with legal consequences, I can't see how they would be liable for gas in a tank filled elsewhere (but then I don't get to court very often).

In fact, it's likely increased the shop's liability. Their asking for the card indicates what they must believe is a safety issue (why else would they do that?) yet they ended up letting him dive without it. What do you think would have happened had there been a nitrox related accident after they violated their own safety procedures???

 

[Ste Wart]

Geez, Cheese!
Forgive me if this has already been mentioned in this thread, it is getting fairly winded and I'm tired too lazy to read it all my bad;

If the shop is so in the know, how the hell do you get a Full Cave Cert with no Nitrox training??
This sounds like my LDS that won't fill my nitrox tank (has nitrox decal) with straight air. Their response; " Well what if a diver thinks it is Nitrox instead of air? They may think they are breathing nitrox and might get hurt". They stick blend with Grade E so no excuse on PP cleanliness. No S**T, this is a real story. Same folks who don't know what the plus rating is on an LP tank, so hot fast fills to 2400 cooling to less than turn pressure on a cave fill . Sort of goes along with my regulator service rants in the past from same shop, Big time SP dealer and so in the know...

I'm fairly certain that if I presented a trimix card to them they would not realize that it trumps a nitrox card so no fill, seriously.... (we have dubbed it the mask, fins and snorkel shop, the are good at that). Ah, the times we live in...

Been running through my IANTD standards. I can't find the req for nitrox in anything lower than Technical Cave. Fulll Cave, Cavern and intro don't seem to require it Nitrox for IANTD.

This website advertises for NSS-CDS Cave, still no nitrox

http://www.aztecdiving.com/cavern_cave.htm#fullcave

 

[Scubadude_LA]

Hmmm, I guess I stand corrected then. My cave instructor requires Advanced Nitrox and Deco Procedures prior to apprentice. But I guess that has to do with the profiles of the caves the training is done in. You would end up with a deco obligation and would carry deco gas, hence you would have an Advanced Nitrox Card good to 100%.

 

[Wookie]

If you bring your own cylinder on my boat, and you want to dive it, we will ask you for to analyze it and sign a release just as if I filled it. We will also ask to see your card, but we will be performing the next 11 fills, so the situation is slightly different. If you bring a tank of nitrox and want air fills for the rest of the trip (nitrox is included in the charter price, but we do get some stubborn folks who only want air, like Dr. Bill here), we will not ask to see your nitrox card, nor will we ask you to analyze your cylinder, because, quite frankly, you are a big boy, and what you choose to breath is your own damn business.

 

[DCBC]

I had an interesting and somewhat annoying experience with a local dive shop- Scubaworks in Jupiter, Florida. It was honestly pretty weird to me, and I wondered if I'm crazy.

As you gave him a technical card, I'd be upset to. The ASME is a professional association that has provided Codes and Standards in the U.S. (ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code). None of these involve filling pressure vessels or any restriction of ownership of pressure vessels (pressurized or not).

I know of no specific regulation that requires a person to be a certified diver to have a tank filled (similar cylinders are used by the paint ball community).

If someone knows otherwise, please provide the details. Also please elaborate on the parameters of filling different inert gases and the regulations involving the qualifications required by the fill attendant...

Technically speaking in Canada, it's the fill attendant that must possess specific skill-sets such as hazmat training, awareness of regulations involving pressure vessels (storage, over pressurization, cylinder stamping requirements, commercial transportation logs / signs on vehicle, etc.). How many that actually do is a mystery...

If I provided an Advanced Trimix Card to the fill attendant, he could turn me away because it isn't "Nitrox" Interestingly enough, Air is!!! How does any 'imagined requirements' get around this??? What is the legal definition of Nitrox, if not a mixture of gas that's not primarily Nitrogen? Air is Nitrox 78. Is someone suggesting that you need a separate card for each percentage of Nitrogen in the mixture? That of course is ridiculous and why there is no regulation to cover it.

It's seems to be a scam to me and I think you have a right to be ticked. The guy was being an *ssho**.

If Dive Charter Operators (DCO) want to take on the responsibility that Divers are safe to dive, the last thing I would be worried about is the type of gas they're using. How about if they can't swim?? Is it the role of the DCO to police the training that diver's come with? That said, they do have a responsibility not to put someone into a situation they reasonably believe is beyond their capabilities, but in this case I can't see it. The guy says he's trained; you have no grounds to disbelieve him especially with a Full Cave Card.

Like Albert Einstein was quoted as saying: "The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits...

 

[kelemvor]

You know, since cards (at least the NAUI cards I've got) are custom printed with my name/id on them. It would be nice if the agencies would print all your cert info onto a single piece of plastic. I see this problem as a failure on the part of the agencies involved. Well part of it is their failure, anyway.

I'm not sure what other agencies cards look like, but on the NAUI cards there's a large quantity of white space where the info could be printed. The back of the thing simply has a company logo, and could contain useful information as well if space were to become an issue.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

As you gave him a technical card, I'd be upset to. The ASME is a professional association that has provided Codes and Standards in the U.S. (ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code). None of these involve filling pressure vessels or any restriction of ownership of pressure vessels (pressurized or not).

I know of no specific regulation that requires a person to be a certified diver to have a tank filled (similar cylinders are used by the paint ball community).

If someone knows otherwise, please provide the details. Also please elaborate on the parameters of filling different inert gases and the regulations involving the qualifications required by the fill attendant...

It isn't a law. In the USA, the only law applying to scuba cylinders is a DOT law specifying that they need to be hydro'd every five years. Everything else is either an industry standard or a shop policy.

Shop policies are at the discretion of the shop owner. Some shops won't fill a nitrox cylinder unless it has a 6" banner plastered on its side that says NITROX. Others only require a VIP sticker showing that the cylinder has been appropriately prepared to receive either up to EAN40 or has been O2 cleaned.

All shops that I've ever done business with will want to know that the person getting the fill has been properly trained in the use of nitrox. Again, this isn't regulated by law ... it's a recognized industry standard that came about as the result of a symposium that happened about 20 years ago where standards were adopted and agreed to by various training agencies. These standards are the reason why the curriculum for nitrox training is essentially the same regardless of which agency trains you.

Technically speaking in Canada, it's the fill attendant that must possess specific skill-sets such as hazmat training, awareness of regulations involving pressure vessels (storage, over pressurization, cylinder stamping requirements, commercial transportation logs / signs on vehicle, etc.). How many that actually do is a mystery...

I do a lot of diving in Canada, and I haven't seen any sign that their fill attendants are any more or less trained than the ones in the states. Just as we are required to have DOT stamps on our cylinders showing a valid hydro, they are required to have a TC stamp on theirs for the same reason. Other than that, the shop policies between the Washington and British Columbia shops I've used appear to be similar.

If I provided an Advanced Trimix Card to the fill attendant, he could turn me away because it isn't "Nitrox" Interestingly enough, Air is!!! How does any 'imagined requirements' get around this??? What is the legal definition of Nitrox, if not a mixture of gas that's not primarily Nitrogen? Air is Nitrox 78. Is someone suggesting that you need a separate card for each percentage of Nitrogen in the mixture? That of course is ridiculous and why there is no regulation to cover it.

... because the card doesn't specify nitrox ... it specifies Enriched Air Nitrox ... which for recreational diving is anything greater than 21% up to 40% oxygen content. Air is considered EAN21. I've never heard of Nitrox 78 ... I have heard of Nitrox I (EAN32) and Nitrox II (EAN36), which are NOAA standard mixes.

It's seems to be a scam to me and I think you have a right to be ticked. The guy was being an *ssho**.

If Dive Charter Operators (DCO) want to take on the responsibility that Divers are safe to dive, the last thing I would be worried about is the type of gas they're using. How about if they can't swim?? Is it the role of the DCO to police the training that diver's come with? That said, they do have a responsibility not to put someone into a situation they reasonably believe is beyond their capabilities, but in this case I can't see it. The guy says he's trained; you have no grounds to disbelieve him especially with a Full Cave Card.

As previously noted, there is no requirement for nitrox training in order to receive a Full Cave certification ... that's comparing apples and orangutans.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[redacted]

All shops that I've ever done business with will want to know that the person getting the fill has been properly trained in the use of nitrox. Again, this isn't regulated by law ... it's a recognized industry standard that came about as the result of a symposium that happened about 20 years ago where standards were adopted and agreed to by various training agencies. These standards are the reason why the curriculum for nitrox training is essentially the same regardless of which agency trains you.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Is there any written record of these "industry standards" adopted by the training agencies?

 

[drbill]

....but we do get some stubborn folks who only want air, like Dr. Bill here

Stubborn? Me? When Nitrox costs $16-20 a bottle here on the island and I do 300+ dives a year, I'm sticking with air!

Understand your situation on your boat though.,.. you are filling Nitrox and you should ask to see the card. Maybe by the time I get out there and dive your boat I'll be Nitrox certified myself!