No Morning Dive After Flight the Day Before with ProDive Mexico?!?
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gopbroek
Contributor
I may be wrong but I thought ProDive, like Dressel, was more of a corporate AI resort / cruise ship excursion company that does diving excursions. In that type model you would have a lot of turnover in your cliental and staff and with multiple locations spread across multiple destinations the corporate reflex is to worry excessively about liability. Another problem is that the staff probably has little stake in the company so they would naturally follow corporate rules without question or reason other than ‘it’s a rule’.
The thing that I have noticed is that often (but not always) these type of operations cater to folks that will dive while on vacation, as one of multiple planned activities, as opposed to the OCD (ScubaBoard) divers that go on vacation to dive.
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I haven't been in Cozumel in several years, but for the purposes of this thread, I will describe one of those occasions when using one of the operators Christi listed. They have a number of boats, and they endeavor to divide you by ability. As soon as I arrived, I went to the shop, dropped off my gear, did my paperwork, and discussed my goals. The next morning I went to the pier outside my hotel and awaited my boat. It arrived with the rest of the divers all ready to go--I was the last to board. "We're going to Maracaibo--OK with you?" one of them called out as the boat reached the pier. Of course it was OK. Doing my first dive at a site that requires a dispensation from the Pope for most of the operators was perfectly fine.
Markus Fleischmann
Registered
Hi all, I am Markus, from Pro Dive, and I have just read through this present thread. I would like to clarify that there is no rule at Pro Dive that someone is not allowed to "dive right after a flight". Obviously that wouldn't make any sense. What is correct is that we prefer to start on a dive with divers that are new to us, with a dive that is not a DEEP dive. We usually like to start with a shallow or mid deep dive, so the diver has time to freshen up again after time of no diving, and we as a shop also have an opportunity to get to know the diver, his skills and capacity. That's all. Obviously the morning dives are usually deep dives, then we do mid deep and more shallow dives during the course of the day. So we just like to avoid a new diver on his very first dive with us right on a (usually morning) deep dive, as we don't know him. Of course exceptions can be made, when appropriate! Sometimes we also do shallower dives in the morning (or deep dives around noon, as we operate several boats which provide a certain flexibility), and we also do exceptions when we see that divers have the sufficient experience to go dive deep with us right away. But to make such an exception, we need to know the experience of a diver, and we usually ask 3 things in a rebooking process, for everyone. 1) certification level 2) amount of dives logged during lifetime and 3) date of the last dive. Besides this, we also need to know that a diver is ok dive medically.
There are many dive shops not only in Cozmel but in Mexico and all over the world, which simply make their divers sign a waiver, so they are not legally responsable and thats it. They admit unexperienced divers on dives to deep or too challenging, or they don't care about medical issues thinking since a diver is certified he should know about this him/herself, so whatever. We don't. We do safety and customer service! - and therefore we receive a very good amount of divers per year that know about our reputation, and we want to assure the diving for everyone, safety is our main concern, as well as customer service of course. It has to be noted that in Cozumel at least a dozen divers die every year. Usually it is because of underlying conditions, like heart problems, high blood pressure and so on, that make divers struggle which can lead to accidents - this happens even to EXPERIENCED DIVERS, when they are not fit or out of shape, lie about their medical condition, their dive experience, etc etc. We have seen it all, divers that had heart surgery that lie about this, having a huge zip scar on their chest, or divers that state they dove since 25 years and they are very experienced, but sometimes these divers haven't been diving in years, or in the 25 years mentioned they maybe did just 12 dives. So this is the reason why we like to assess every diver thoroughly, and when we make exceptions to our safety standards (like to avoid divers going on a first dive with us right away deep), which often enough we do, we need to know about that specific diver in order to allow it. So, that being said, we make exceptions every day, when appropriate!
I like to stress here that I asked our reservations team about this case, as it made me wonder what happened here when reading, and it appears that the client here unfortunately had a bit of an aggressive approach right from start in the conversation (it was our web chat, where clients can chat life with our reservations team). Coralie, who was communicating with this diver, expressed in a friendly way about our standard but during the conversation she expressed that of course we also make exceptions depending on the experience level of the diver, but to do that that she needed that information. In my humble opinion, the client didn't really give her the chance, I will post the full chat below. It seems more like an already negativity laden approach of the client to confirm something he read elsewhere, without giving much chance so we could make things right and match the clients expectations - which very likely would have been possible!
Also, it can be seen here, while the client here in Scubaboard states he is a Rescue Diver currently in training to become a Divemaster, to our staff however he stated he is a certified Divemaster already. These are the little details I was mentioning beforehand. Furthermore, a Divemaster also normally knows that for an uncomfortable divers there is greater risk on a deep dive than on a shallower dives, for obvious reasons. Quicker air consumption, longer way to surface in case of distress, etc. etc. so for an assessment of a divers true skill level a dive which is not so deep is the easiest and best, carrying the least risk. Its obvious this has nothing to do with dehydration after a flight, and my judgement is that a Divemaster, because of his knowledge, would normally know and understand it.
As of this specific case, sure, a Rescue Diver also usually has some experience and most likely he could do a deep dive to start with, which is . But my point is that the assessment of a diver sometimes can be difficult, especially if divers are not entirely honest when providing their information. So considering this, 85 dives done in a lifetime, can become 85 dives done only this year, a Rescue diver certification can become a DM certification, and maybe a last dive done only 2 days ago has been 2 years ago in reality, statements provided because a client just doesn't want to be stopped from diving, or doesn't want to start out with a more shallow dive, or do a pool refresher, or whatever.
I am not saying this is all true for this specific inquiry, i am just trying to detail how difficult the job of assessment sometimes is. And like i said, we do not wash our vest clean not caring by simply having a diver waive his rights to sue us, we are really genuinely interested in the safety of our clients. For the clients sake, and for our sake as a company as well. Our company exists since almost 15 years now and we are operating in more than one country, about a dozen dive centres in total. Our growth is due to our way of operating, always putting safety and customer service first, obviously. In all those years, we have never ever had a fatal dive accident, not a single one, and we like to keep it that way. Especially looking ay statistics in Cozumel, where there are a lot of divers and many fatalities unfortunately do happen, mostly due to unfit divers, divers that engage into dives that are just too challenging for them, dive masters that don't correctly asses a divers and supply the necessary supervision, etc etc. we are quite proud about our clean accident history since company foundation.
Talking about recommended lists of dive ops in cozumel, we are rated #4 out of 194 dive and watersports operators in Cozumel on tripdadvisor: Pro Dive Mexico (Cozumel): Top Tips Before You Go - TripAdvisor .So when looking at lists it of course always depends on who is providing an opinion and who makes that list.
I hope my contribution could help a little to clarify the question of this thread. This client as I will show below (I am pasting below the chat with our rep) would most likely have been able to dive with us in the morning as he wished, but in ways of communication he was unfortunately not very cooperative to help, to make that exception. I find this very unfortunate, but if he is reading this, i encourage him to contact us again (we don't have his email address as he just terminated the chat without providing further info), so we can solve the issue and ensure him a positive experience diving with Pro Dive.
Cheers, Markus
(p.s. i am posting the chat below in next window as it doesn't seem to fit here anymore)
There are many dive shops not only in Cozmel but in Mexico and all over the world, which simply make their divers sign a waiver, so they are not legally responsable and thats it. They admit unexperienced divers on dives to deep or too challenging, or they don't care about medical issues thinking since a diver is certified he should know about this him/herself, so whatever. We don't. We do safety and customer service! - and therefore we receive a very good amount of divers per year that know about our reputation, and we want to assure the diving for everyone, safety is our main concern, as well as customer service of course. It has to be noted that in Cozumel at least a dozen divers die every year. Usually it is because of underlying conditions, like heart problems, high blood pressure and so on, that make divers struggle which can lead to accidents - this happens even to EXPERIENCED DIVERS, when they are not fit or out of shape, lie about their medical condition, their dive experience, etc etc. We have seen it all, divers that had heart surgery that lie about this, having a huge zip scar on their chest, or divers that state they dove since 25 years and they are very experienced, but sometimes these divers haven't been diving in years, or in the 25 years mentioned they maybe did just 12 dives. So this is the reason why we like to assess every diver thoroughly, and when we make exceptions to our safety standards (like to avoid divers going on a first dive with us right away deep), which often enough we do, we need to know about that specific diver in order to allow it. So, that being said, we make exceptions every day, when appropriate!
I like to stress here that I asked our reservations team about this case, as it made me wonder what happened here when reading, and it appears that the client here unfortunately had a bit of an aggressive approach right from start in the conversation (it was our web chat, where clients can chat life with our reservations team). Coralie, who was communicating with this diver, expressed in a friendly way about our standard but during the conversation she expressed that of course we also make exceptions depending on the experience level of the diver, but to do that that she needed that information. In my humble opinion, the client didn't really give her the chance, I will post the full chat below. It seems more like an already negativity laden approach of the client to confirm something he read elsewhere, without giving much chance so we could make things right and match the clients expectations - which very likely would have been possible!
Also, it can be seen here, while the client here in Scubaboard states he is a Rescue Diver currently in training to become a Divemaster, to our staff however he stated he is a certified Divemaster already. These are the little details I was mentioning beforehand. Furthermore, a Divemaster also normally knows that for an uncomfortable divers there is greater risk on a deep dive than on a shallower dives, for obvious reasons. Quicker air consumption, longer way to surface in case of distress, etc. etc. so for an assessment of a divers true skill level a dive which is not so deep is the easiest and best, carrying the least risk. Its obvious this has nothing to do with dehydration after a flight, and my judgement is that a Divemaster, because of his knowledge, would normally know and understand it.
As of this specific case, sure, a Rescue Diver also usually has some experience and most likely he could do a deep dive to start with, which is . But my point is that the assessment of a diver sometimes can be difficult, especially if divers are not entirely honest when providing their information. So considering this, 85 dives done in a lifetime, can become 85 dives done only this year, a Rescue diver certification can become a DM certification, and maybe a last dive done only 2 days ago has been 2 years ago in reality, statements provided because a client just doesn't want to be stopped from diving, or doesn't want to start out with a more shallow dive, or do a pool refresher, or whatever.
I am not saying this is all true for this specific inquiry, i am just trying to detail how difficult the job of assessment sometimes is. And like i said, we do not wash our vest clean not caring by simply having a diver waive his rights to sue us, we are really genuinely interested in the safety of our clients. For the clients sake, and for our sake as a company as well. Our company exists since almost 15 years now and we are operating in more than one country, about a dozen dive centres in total. Our growth is due to our way of operating, always putting safety and customer service first, obviously. In all those years, we have never ever had a fatal dive accident, not a single one, and we like to keep it that way. Especially looking ay statistics in Cozumel, where there are a lot of divers and many fatalities unfortunately do happen, mostly due to unfit divers, divers that engage into dives that are just too challenging for them, dive masters that don't correctly asses a divers and supply the necessary supervision, etc etc. we are quite proud about our clean accident history since company foundation.
Talking about recommended lists of dive ops in cozumel, we are rated #4 out of 194 dive and watersports operators in Cozumel on tripdadvisor: Pro Dive Mexico (Cozumel): Top Tips Before You Go - TripAdvisor .So when looking at lists it of course always depends on who is providing an opinion and who makes that list.
I hope my contribution could help a little to clarify the question of this thread. This client as I will show below (I am pasting below the chat with our rep) would most likely have been able to dive with us in the morning as he wished, but in ways of communication he was unfortunately not very cooperative to help, to make that exception. I find this very unfortunate, but if he is reading this, i encourage him to contact us again (we don't have his email address as he just terminated the chat without providing further info), so we can solve the issue and ensure him a positive experience diving with Pro Dive.
Cheers, Markus
(p.s. i am posting the chat below in next window as it doesn't seem to fit here anymore)
Markus Fleischmann
Registered
Operator Coralie has joined the chat.
Coralie: Hello
Coralie: How can I help you ?
Visitor: Hi. We arrive the afternoon of the 22nd of August at the Allegro Cozumel and plan to do the morning dive the following day. Is this a problem?
Coralie: Hi, sounds good
Coralie: how many dives would you like to do in total ?
Visitor: Sorry, but you didn't answer my question.
Coralie: We usually ask our divers to start in the afternoon trip since our morning dives are usually deeper
Visitor: I read on one of the dive sites that you don't allow divers to dive the morning dive after their arrival the day before.
Coralie: so on your first diving day we prefer you to start with the afternoon dives and then on the next days you will be more than welcome to join the AM dives
Coralie: this is a safety protocol we have
Visitor: OK. Why?
Visitor: As a PADI Divemaster, I cannot think of a single reason to do this other than hydration which is easily remedied.
Visitor: Please share some good insight for this ...
Coralie: As I said our morning dives are deeper (around 90/100fet)
Coralie: and the current can be strong in Cozumel some days
Coralie: so as we do not know you as a diver yet, we like to start in the afternoon trip
Coralie: As a dive master you probably have some experience but as a dive master you also know that safety is very important in diving
Coralie: In pro dive safety is our major concern, so this is why we have some rules
Coralie: Now, it is also depends on your experience
Visitor: All of what you have just typed is absolutely true in every regard. HOWEVER, none of that has anything to do with restricting a diver after a flight the previous days. We don't want to lose a half day of diving.
Coralie: So I would have to check with the dive center if you can maybe start with the 10 AM dives
Coralie: what is your experience ?
Coralie: How many dives do you have logged ?
Coralie: We can make some exeption
Visitor: I'll talk to the other three divers. I suspect you just lost out on 30 2-tank dives, a couple of night dives and the whale shark tour. No worries.
Coralie: Sorry, but I need to know your experience first
Visitor: EXPERIENCE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH NOT DIVING AFTER FLYING THE DAY BEFORE!!
Coralie: You can dive after flying, this is not the problem
Coralie: I am talking about safety and depth
Visitor: THE SAME DIVER WILL DIVE THAT AFTERNOON THAT WOULD HAVE DIVED THAT MORNING
Coralie: I am trying to explain you something simple about safety
Coralie: And I would need to know more about your experience
Coralie: how many logged dive you have
Visitor: I'm patiently waiting for your explanation.
Coralie: This is simple, you want to dive in the morning, ok ! We usually don't do that on the first day and I already explained you why.
Coralie: So if you give me more info about your dive experience
Coralie: i'd be happy to arrange something for you
Coralie: and maybe organize morning dives
Visitor: No worries. Getting a dive op is REALLY easy in Cozumel. Thanks for your time.
Coralie: I am trying to be nice and help
Coralie: If you answer my question I could help you but without answer what can I do ?
Visitor: I have logged over 85 dives this year alone. I'm a PADI certified divemaster.
Coralie: Ok, and when was your last dive ?
Visitor: Two days ago
Coralie: ok
Coralie: May I ask you what is your e-mail address ?
Coralie: I would check with the dive center how we can arrange AM dives for you
Coralie: You wrote me 85 dives thsi year, but how many dives in total ?
The visitor has left the chat.
Coralie: Hello
Coralie: How can I help you ?
Visitor: Hi. We arrive the afternoon of the 22nd of August at the Allegro Cozumel and plan to do the morning dive the following day. Is this a problem?
Coralie: Hi, sounds good
Coralie: how many dives would you like to do in total ?
Visitor: Sorry, but you didn't answer my question.
Coralie: We usually ask our divers to start in the afternoon trip since our morning dives are usually deeper
Visitor: I read on one of the dive sites that you don't allow divers to dive the morning dive after their arrival the day before.
Coralie: so on your first diving day we prefer you to start with the afternoon dives and then on the next days you will be more than welcome to join the AM dives
Coralie: this is a safety protocol we have
Visitor: OK. Why?
Visitor: As a PADI Divemaster, I cannot think of a single reason to do this other than hydration which is easily remedied.
Visitor: Please share some good insight for this ...
Coralie: As I said our morning dives are deeper (around 90/100fet)
Coralie: and the current can be strong in Cozumel some days
Coralie: so as we do not know you as a diver yet, we like to start in the afternoon trip
Coralie: As a dive master you probably have some experience but as a dive master you also know that safety is very important in diving
Coralie: In pro dive safety is our major concern, so this is why we have some rules
Coralie: Now, it is also depends on your experience
Visitor: All of what you have just typed is absolutely true in every regard. HOWEVER, none of that has anything to do with restricting a diver after a flight the previous days. We don't want to lose a half day of diving.
Coralie: So I would have to check with the dive center if you can maybe start with the 10 AM dives
Coralie: what is your experience ?
Coralie: How many dives do you have logged ?
Coralie: We can make some exeption
Visitor: I'll talk to the other three divers. I suspect you just lost out on 30 2-tank dives, a couple of night dives and the whale shark tour. No worries.
Coralie: Sorry, but I need to know your experience first
Visitor: EXPERIENCE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH NOT DIVING AFTER FLYING THE DAY BEFORE!!
Coralie: You can dive after flying, this is not the problem
Coralie: I am talking about safety and depth
Visitor: THE SAME DIVER WILL DIVE THAT AFTERNOON THAT WOULD HAVE DIVED THAT MORNING
Coralie: I am trying to explain you something simple about safety
Coralie: And I would need to know more about your experience
Coralie: how many logged dive you have
Visitor: I'm patiently waiting for your explanation.
Coralie: This is simple, you want to dive in the morning, ok ! We usually don't do that on the first day and I already explained you why.
Coralie: So if you give me more info about your dive experience
Coralie: i'd be happy to arrange something for you
Coralie: and maybe organize morning dives
Visitor: No worries. Getting a dive op is REALLY easy in Cozumel. Thanks for your time.
Coralie: I am trying to be nice and help
Coralie: If you answer my question I could help you but without answer what can I do ?
Visitor: I have logged over 85 dives this year alone. I'm a PADI certified divemaster.
Coralie: Ok, and when was your last dive ?
Visitor: Two days ago
Coralie: ok
Coralie: May I ask you what is your e-mail address ?
Coralie: I would check with the dive center how we can arrange AM dives for you
Coralie: You wrote me 85 dives thsi year, but how many dives in total ?
The visitor has left the chat.
When I was still a fairly new diver in Cozumel, as we headed out to the dive site, one of the divers made sure we all knew that if we got into trouble on the dive, we were in good hands--he was a Rescue Diver. He had his newly certified bride with him. She turned out to be a far better diver than he was. The divemaster literally held his hand throughout the dive. He was one of the worst divers I have ever seen anywhere.
The Gabe Watson case is famous. Gabe and his bride, Tina, went to Australia to dive the GBR, and they talked the boat crew into waiving the requirement for a checkout dive because Gabe was a certified Rescue Diver. Tina drowned on her first dive, and Gabe's attempts to rescue her were so inept that he was initially charged with her death--that level of ineptitude had to be intentional. The ultimate determination of dive experts and the final decision of the court was that, no, he really was so inept that he was incapable of rescuing her.
Markus Fleischmann
Registered
exactly!
Well, there are two sides to this story, but I still don't understand why a dive operator cannot make arrangements for a morning dive the day after arrival. Others manage it safely and evaluate the experience, skills, and fitness of divers. This is the first time I have ever heard of making a diver wait until the afternoon of the day after arrival to dive. It's normally a question of which sites you will dive, not whether you will dive.
Dan
Contributor
Well, that's pretty much clears up the misunderstanding. Thanks for posting your side of the story.
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