Not allowed on a boat because of your dive agency card?

[Akimbo]

Nothing causes myopia quite like nostalgia. It allows the self indulgent to participate in the worst kind of bathos imaginable. Progress is then perceived as some sort of regression rather than appreciated for its quiet efficiency that comes from a relentless evolution. Rather than pontificate long and hard about how things were somehow "better" in the old days, just show us how you teach NOW….

If you took that from my post, that was not my intent. I am also not sure I fully understand your reply to Bob. Here is my current thinking: Progress is rarely a smooth curve up and forward. The primary purpose of macho Navy Demolition Diver crap in training never had anything to do with diving. It was about keeping people alive when others are trying to kill them. Not much of that in our sport, excluding Mother Nature herself.

There is an important aspect of longer training programs that the laudable goal of funning up is currently compromising — time to think and understand. Understanding at a gut level translates into divers that feel safe and comfortable, thus able to have fun and continue to spend money.

That is the primary reason I favor combining Open Water, Deep Water, and Nitrox into Scuba 101. I wouldn’t say there is a fear of the unknown in the new divers I have met, more like a fear of how much they realize they don’t understand. They adhere to a few simplified rules that they barely comprehend the reasons for. I believe that these divers would be more comfortable if they understood more. Regurgitating information on a test is not understanding. This is based on many questions I hear on long boat rides.

I also believe that a one-size fits all class-schedule is inappropriate. There is a lot more a new diver must contend with in Maine versus Florida. The additional facts aren’t that much greater, but the environmental distraction is huge. It is more about the ability of people to process and integrate than the foreign environment itself.

I also believe that the efficiency of presenting the factual aspects can be dramatically improved, in all education environments. We have a bunch of fairly good teachers saying the same thing over and over with a white-board and arm gestures… diving instructors and physics professors. I believe that very well-produced interactive computer-based videos that are full of graphics, in-situ scenes, and props to demonstrate a point in many different relatable settings will prepare diving students to formulate questions for classroom sessions. Also, definitely more fun. That is the best use of student and instructor’s face-time. I don’t think it should be eliminated because interaction with a human instructor and the class cements concepts that might otherwise be missed.

Some people here take offense to comments about the “merit badge” system. I first heard the phrase from several independent diving instructors. They describe it to me as a marketing technique for their clients (the dive shops that sign their check). It isn’t a bad economic model, at least in the short term. I appreciate competitive pressures, difficult retail economics, and making payroll. I also see industries that invest in their sales staff for long term gain. This conundrum is not the fault of instructors; it is the inability of dive shops to sell training.

 

[Rick Murchison]

... I didn’t go through harassment dives in my initial Scuba training, but was a much better diver after them in Navy Scuba school (also nothing like BUD/S) ... funning-up has gone too far resulting in divers that are fundamentally uncomfortable ... the industry would be better off making the basic diving course include Open Water, Deep Water, and Nitrox; partly for the depth of knowledge and partly for the time in and out of the water for a lot of important stuff to sink in.

I believe the industry needs lessons for dive shops on selling a more expensive diving course rather than depend on sales gimmicks more akin to drug dealers...

Hear! hear!
If I were the Scuba training God I'd reinstate one "harassment drill" immediately - the "valve shutdown; diver has to turn it back on" drill. Every year there is at least one death from a diver jumping in with gas off (or barely on) and being unable (whether physically unable or never trained to do it) to simply reach back and turn on the gas. Totally inexcusable.
As for the longer course, all of us in the instructing business recognize the shortfalls of the "bring-em-in-&-spit-em-out" courses these days, and we do as much to put meat in the programs as possible. But the fact remains that folks "just want to have fun" - and cheap. So instead we see the continuing march towards meatless courses (like these new "Scuba Diver" courses), and an ever increasing drop-out rate. Penny wise and pound foolish.
Rick

 

[redacted]

Hear! hear!
If I were the Scuba training God I'd reinstate one "harassment drill" immediately - the "valve shutdown; diver has to turn it back on" drill. Every year there is at least one death from a diver jumping in with gas off (or barely on) and being unable (whether physically unable or never trained to do it) to simply reach back and turn on the gas. Totally inexcusable.
As for the longer course, all of us in the instructing business recognize the shortfalls of the "bring-em-in-&-spit-em-out" courses these days, and we do as much to put meat in the programs as possible. But the fact remains that folks "just want to have fun" - and cheap. So instead we see the continuing march towards meatless courses (like these new "Scuba Diver" courses), and an ever increasing drop-out rate. Penny wise and pound foolish.
Rick

Valve drills for single tank recreational divers would be a nice skill even if it is nothing more than a confidence builder. But since they are already being taught to go to their buddy in the event of a gas problem and a CESA as a backup, I'm not sure a third option is at all necessary. In fact, since it would probably be taught as the first option to chose in some cases, it could even be counter-productive if it delays the other 2 options. So the real teaching challenge may be more of when to take such an action rather than how. And I'm not sure what the answer to that is for a new diver.

 

[gypsyjim]

Hear! hear!
If I were the Scuba training God I'd reinstate one "harassment drill" immediately - the "valve shutdown; diver has to turn it back on" drill. Every year there is at least one death from a diver jumping in with gas off (or barely on) and being unable (whether physically unable or never trained to do it) to simply reach back and turn on the gas. Totally inexcusable.
Rick

Valve drills for single tank recreational divers would be a nice skill even if it is nothing more than a confidence builder. But since they are already being taught to go to their buddy in the event of a gas problem and a CESA as a backup, I'm not sure a third option is at all necessary. In fact, since it would probably be taught as the first option to chose in some cases, it could even be counter-productive if it delays the other 2 options. So the real teaching challenge may be more of when to take such an action rather than how. And I'm not sure what the answer to that is for a new diver.

Such a simple skill, which could go so far in easily preventing heartache.

Sadly, buddies can be seperated , especially with new divers doing entries from a boat. I believe that the simple act of being able to reach back and turn on your own gas is a skill that should be taught almost before the student ever once enters the deep end of a pool.

From what I have seen I do not think most new divers are even aware that they CAN do this self correction in the water.

 

[Rick Murchison]

...From what I have seen I do not think most new divers are even aware that they CAN do this self correction in the water.

Most of 'em can't, because they've been trained to position the tank too low to reach it, and haven't been trained how to raise the tank so they *can* reach it when the tank's positioned too low.
Hell, I'd take a better than even bet that half the non-tech rated OW instructors can't turn their own tank valves underwater.
Rick

 

[Akimbo]

…If I were the Scuba training God I'd reinstate one "harassment drill" immediately - the "valve shutdown; diver has to turn it back on" drill…

The definition of harassment dives is pretty broad and often a loaded phase. Again, my history in the Navy was on the salvage side of diving, not combat. Most people understandably see video of harassment dives used in both disciplines as mindless and cruel with the intent of “weeding out” the undeserving. That was my view as a young sailor dreading going through it (which is many times easier than what combat divers experience). I understood later that the weeding-out aspect was the very bottom on the list. Allowing people to discover that they can survive adverse events was the objective. That allows problem-solving to displace panic, which is the ultimate killer.

Valve shutdowns and a few mask yanks probably don’t meet the threshold for harassment dives of people who have watched the History Channel. I dove for 8 years in the 1960s before Navy Diving School so was relatively comfortable compared to most of my classmates. There was a marked difference in confidence in everyone before the final harassment dive and after (contrary to many beliefs, the harassment was slowly introduced early in the class).

So, if you define harassment as creating environments to discover one’s abilities and apply what they have learned, I fully agree. Unfortunately it is extremely labor intensive and seriously un-fun unless executed very well and in bit-size pieces. I think that we can all agree that the end result is very desirable. I won’t even pretend to suggest the best way to get there in the recreational environment. However, it is also foolish to dismiss harassment dives based on incorrect perceptions without finding a method to replace the result.

I also question the efficacy of the technique in the general population. I suspect it works best when dispensed to high testosterone driven individuals with an under-developed sense of self-preservation. This is not a criticism or a compliment. Only an observation that people like this/us/me exist and are wired differently than at least half the rest of the population.

 

[Akimbo]

…From what I have seen I do not think most new divers are even aware that they CAN do this self correction in the water.

Sadly, this and Ricks comments are consistent with my observations. I suspect that the vast differences in human experiences are not adequately compensated for. The majority of the male-dominated diving community, especially in the earlier days, had more shared experiences than today. Sure a high pressure cylinder is no big deal to someone who has been around welding or even paint-ball guns. I doubt my English teacher understood the difference between a Scuba cylinder and a dry fire extinguisher. Sure it seems like something you can teach in a few seconds. But being calm enough to hold your breath, reach back, and twist a valve is a pretty complex interaction.

That’s not so easy when you are wearing a lot of heavy crap that feels really strange, cold water hits your face, you are sinking, are surprised when there is nothing to breath, and the whole idea of compressed air is somewhere between a new concept and friking magic.

I have no idea how to implement it but grouping people in tailored diving classes based on swimming ability, life experience, and confidence levels would be a wonderful innovation. This is an interesting conversation.

 

[The Chairman]

If you took that from my post, that was not my intent.

As I stated: I amplified what you said about the "inventor" of any course, etc. They have bought in often to the neglect of any other possibility.

​

 

[Akimbo]

As I stated: I amplified what you said about the "inventor" of any course, etc. They have bought in often to the neglect of any other possibility…

I guess that is outside my experience. The early Scuba diving innovators predated me. The innovators, those that were my heroes, had no interest or involvement in diver training.

I was fortunate to be taught by someone who loved diving, was a mechanical engineer in real life, and taught himself by reading the 1952 and 59 Navy Diving Manuals and the Compleat Goggler. He didn’t have a military diving background and bore the scars on his eardrums from the now classic mistake of wearing ear plugs. I was very fortunate and related well to him.

It is human nature to become “contaminated” by familiarity. It does not matter if it is an innovator, engineer, or a marketing department. Once you work with a problem long enough you lose sight of what is common knowledge or intuitive to others. After all, we each experience a different “reality” as seen through our eyeballs and processed by our brains. No matter how much we try, what our brains conclude is influenced by what is already in there… right, wrong, irrelevant, and technically correct.

This can be Scubaboard’s greatest value, if we allow it. Sure it can get boisterous and combative. But it can also be enlightening. You have a powerful collection of people with diverse experience who are primarily motivated by the love of diving — not the business of sport, commercial, manufacturing, retail, training, or travel diving. Just diving.

I think it could become the greatest source of guidance for all aspects of the recreational industry. Let’s face it; these businesses exist to make a profit by delivering what we want. All we have to do is help each other figure that out so we can tell them.

 

[Jill from Phoenix]

The number of dives was, I believe, reduced, as were skill performance objectives. The written exams ... which used to be identical to the NAUI Instructor exams, were revised and the Prep Course that was the bridge from Master Diver to Instructor was scrapped.
.

Thal -

What was the number of dives required for Master? The current minimum is 8.

The official 'Instructor' examination has Teaching Theory, Business of Diving, Legal Aspects of Diving, and Standards and Policies. I would say they end up testing for dive theory, but officially, all the physics, physiology, equipment, decompression, tables, etc. is tested at the master diver level.

The Prep program is still in existence. It's an absolute requirement to enter ITC if they haven't been up through the NAUI ranks of Assistant Instructor and Divemaster.

I love talking to the old school members and picking their brains. From your old post, I gathered that you helped write NAUI courses?