Novice diver plunge for Backplate and Wing?

[piotr_cc]

Yes, it's the holy grail of diving for most conditions:

Exactly!

I'd add the very important issue, which is the static trim. Many people think about "perfect trim" only considering "dynamic trim", which means good horizontal postition when they move. But considering the effort, gas consumption, perfect buoyancy etc, it's very important is to have good static trim. Most of jacket-style BCD's cant be trimmed to provide proper static trim. Static trim means when diver stops, he will be able to maintain perfect horizontal position for a long time without making any movement (even slight fin movements). In such situation jacket-style BCD will turn him to more or less vertical position. Each return to horizontal position requires some effort, so when diver stops often, it will drastically increase gas consumption.

It's just because the jacket-style BCD construction is very far from the "optimal BCD design", especially regarding to the geometry. Tere's a biggest advantage of wing-style BCD's over jacket-style.

 

[TSandM]

It's perfectly possible to dive beautifully in almost any gear, if you are willing to take the time to balance it, and if your skills are good you can compensate for a degree of being out of balance. But Rob, although I know you write all the time that someone with good skills can dive well in any gear . . . consider that someone without good skills may not be able to do that degree of compensation, because they are still trying to survive underwater What I really like about backplate systems is that they don't tend to encourage the student (who often WANTS to be upright, because life on land is an upright process) to be head up. And they hold the tank far quieter on the diver's back. Tank floppage is one of the things that causes instability in students, and as a result of that instability, they frantically wave their hands. Reduce the instability, and the diver becomes quieter. Yes, all of us eventually learn the little, unconscious movements that recenter the tank as we dive. But again, it is precisely the brand new diver who does not have those skills, and who is really aided, in my experience, by gear that doesn't present challenges. Yes, the backplate makes up for skill deficiencies -- but if the result is a new diver who is more stable and more comfortable in the water, and in a better diving attitude, isn't that a good outcome? You and I can dive anything, but the guy with 4 dives is best served by gear that makes his life easy.

To the person who asked the question about horizontal trim, HERE is a very good essay on the topic, well-illustrated. (There are a lot of other good articles on Garf's site, too!)

 

[Lorenzoid]

Yes, it's the holy grail of diving for most conditions:

1. You're more streamlined and cut through the water better thus equates to less effort and less gas usage.

2. You don't kick yourself up towards the surface or towards the bottom which requires constant inflation/deflation adjustments PLUS refer to No.1

3. You present a larger surface area in the water column and it's easier to flare your body in an emergency to keep your ascension rate down while you're taking remedial actions.

Oh, I'm aware of your points 1-3, but as a newbie diver I don't think I could have appreciated their significance. All I was trying to say was that, for me, as a newbie diver, my "holy grail" was feeling safe and comfortable--for the first few years that's all I could ask for. Your points 1-3 would have fallen on deaf ears, because I couldn't relate to them until I had gotten to the point where those things started mattering to me. I wasn't a photographer. I didn't care about hovering motionless, horizontally or otherwise. I was simply like, "wow, a turtle!" I like the idea of BPW NOW, but I can't imagine it would have appealed to me back then (ha!--"back then" is still less than 15 years ago).

So if I understand the point being made, a BP/W will force a new diver to become a better diver more quickly. That's certainly an argument. "Sink or swim," so to speak. I'm not sure everyone responds to that style of learning. Perhaps there are some people who prefer starting with training wheels, as inefficient as they may be? I believe I was such a person.

 

[fnfalman]

I just like the BPW because it looks cool and chicks dig it.

 

[Diver0001]

Tank floppage

Well, Lynne, I've officially learned an entirely new term from you LOL That was the best chuckle of my day so far. Thanks.

Tank floppage is one of the things that causes instability in students, and as a result of that instability, they frantically wave their hands. Reduce the instability, and the diver becomes quieter. Yes, all of us eventually learn the little, unconscious movements that recenter the tank as we dive. But again, it is precisely the brand new diver who does not have those skills, and who is really aided, in my experience, by gear that doesn't present challenges. Yes, the backplate makes up for skill deficiencies -- but if the result is a new diver who is more stable and more comfortable in the water, and in a better diving attitude, isn't that a good outcome? You and I can dive anything, but the guy with 4 dives is best served by gear that makes his life easy.

Ok, you have me there. So you're saying that the extra stability is handy for new divers because it presents a shorter learning curve..?

R..

---------- Post Merged at 09:24 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 09:21 PM ----------

I just like the BPW because it looks cool and chicks dig it.

I used to do that with a ripped torso and pure *cough* athletic prowess....

But now I have to do it with charm and somehow get them to look beyond the layer of fat on the promise that there used to be a 6-pack there and, no dear, my hair wasn't always grey.

Maybe I should buy a ...uuuhhhmmm... bigger backplate

R..

 

[rhwestfall]

I used to do that with a ripped torso and pure *cough* athletic prowess....

But now I have to do it with charm and somehow get them to look beyond the layer of fat on the promise that there used to be a 6-pack there and, no dear, my hair wasn't always grey.

Maybe I should buy a ...uuuhhhmmm... bigger backplate

R..

funny statement from a man that refered to us "Americans" as "obeese" in a recent other BP/W thread...:cool2:

and as to your newly developed "charm"..... yeah right.....

 

[Kitty_Kat]

As much as we all enjoy the standard BPW/jacket that's bound to come up whenever anyone asks a question about gear preferences... :biggrin:

It really doesn't matter what style of BC you end up going with. Don't let a shop talk you into the latest and greatest purely because of that reason (or because it costs the most and therefore is best). If you can try a couple of different styles before buying that would be your best choice. If you live in an area with many different dive shops, go rent gear from as many of them as you can. Chances are they are all different and that should give you some idea of what manufacturers fit you best/have features that you like.

There were a couple of great articles that I've seen over time floating around about the pros and cons of each new type of jacket or back inflate bcd. And you will have no problem getting the pros and cons of a BPW from here

You should aim for horizontal trim for the reasons fnfalman mentioned as well as many others. You are less likely to silt up the bottom, damage aquatic life, etc. However a BPW isn't automatically going to get you there. A good diver should be able to achieve this trim regardless of what they're wearing, and be able to understand how each system/piece of their gear changes their center of balance, and therefore their trim. Sometimes for different systems this involves changing things like fins/material of tank/weight distribution etc. I have yet to find someone who knows how to get good trim in a jacket have any problems instantly achieving nice horizontal trim in a BPW but that's another discussion... :biggrin:

 

[diverrex]

I started diving with a Seaquest Balance BC. Now I use a Halcyon Eclipse in cold water and a Halcyon Traveler for warm. I still think the Balance is a nice BC that dives well and I don't notice a huge difference between it and my BP/W. I do like being able to take 6 lbs of weight off using the BP. But regarding "tank floppage" with my Balance I got pretty good at just sort of jerking my side a little to throw the tank back on center after it flopped a little to the side, with my BP/W that has never been an issue as it always has stayed perfectly center and tight to my back.

 

[fnfalman]

Ok, you have me there. So you're saying that the extra stability is handy for new divers because it presents a shorter learning curve..?

I agree with that assessment. There was one guy that I tried to help out two years ago. Nothing that I or others around could do to get him to trim out horizontally with his BC (an expensive Scubapro of some sort). I finally suggested BPW, lended him a Halcyon Infinity and he literally went from head down/head up to horizontal. We still had to fooled around a bit with the tank adjustments and weight distribution between the weight belt and pouches strapped to the tank band, but he went from a complete disaster to just a minor disaster with BC change. Of course this guy was a special case. With my own anecdotal evidences, whenever I lend out my Halcyon/dive rite BPW or even the Dive Rite Transpac to newbies, they tend to have a wide-eyed experience afterward. With experienced divers? Not so much.

Last year I rented a poodle jacket (not even back inflated) and within one dive I adjusted it enough to have decent trim. Or at least that's what other divers told me. But it was uncomfortable because of tank floppage and the whole thing just didn't stick to my body the way the BPW does.

 

[Diver0001]

funny statement from a man that refered to us "Americans" as "obeese" in a recent other BP/W thread...:cool2:

It wasn't one of my better moments and I really am sorry about that. A good general tip is to never drink beer and write on the internet. Every single time I've ever done that I've regretted it.

and as to your newly developed "charm"..... yeah right.....

Well between the two of us we might have enough to fill a thimble.

R..