The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
Be sure to check out The Devil's Millhopper if you can, and tonight is Hacker Space Night.
NSS-CDS Full Cave: The Live-Blog
- Thread starter dewdropsonrosa
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There's always gonna be someone it works for. But I've seen far more stories like the OP's where it fights them the entire time, myself included.
Trash bag suits trap gas in funny ways. Trash bag suits bunch up in funny ways. Trash bag suits don't move that well, and the skin makes the core do funny things. None of those funny things are conducive to solidly being able to manipulate valves, bottles for a cylinder rotation, easily correcting trim issues, etc.
I'm glad yours works for you, but the "one-size-fits-none" rarely works for anyone. I bought mine when it was still White's. It was supposed to be great, and the guys at DRIS said it would be perfect for what I wanted to do. I could zip a back zip myself! Amazing!!! Turns out it's not perfect for much of anything unless you don't need to be able to reach your valves, don't need to be able to move gas around your suit easily, don't need to correct your trim efficiently. Try learning to dive a rebreather for the first time when you can't actually put gas in your suit where you need it, or get rid of it all when you have to. Again, it works for a few people, it doesn't work for most when they start requiring it to do things that 99% of the world's divers won't do.
A properly fitting trilam is a much better choice, and despite being anecdotal, the evidence continues to show it to be true. It's great that it works for you, but you're the outlier.
devildog12210
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I guess dude. You are pretty much saying because you had a bad experience with it that I am accepting mediocre performance out of mine. I literally experienced none of the problems that you encountered. A group of five of us all got them at the same time and not one of us have experienced the issues you describe. Several had other issues with leaking but that didn't have anything to do with being able to actually dive the suit and do the gear manipulations you describe. We all dive deep on rebreathers with multiple stages. Thats a decent sample size.
I am just confused as to why you are speaking for most people and then say that it doesn't work when doing the things the 99% wont do. Its as if you are saying that I don't know what I'm talking about or that I am a mediocre diver.
Its now been made my backup suit and I dive a DUI now. I do like the DUI better but it has more to do with the custom fit rather than any performance issues that I had with the AL. These were all the 2018 models with the new core if that makes any difference. *shrugs* This is my opinion though and its worth what ya paid for it.
I am just confused as to why you are speaking for most people and then say that it doesn't work when doing the things the 99% wont do. Its as if you are saying that I don't know what I'm talking about or that I am a mediocre diver.
Its now been made my backup suit and I dive a DUI now. I do like the DUI better but it has more to do with the custom fit rather than any performance issues that I had with the AL. These were all the 2018 models with the new core if that makes any difference. *shrugs* This is my opinion though and its worth what ya paid for it.
OP
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@dewdropsonrosa
It's @The Chairman - Chairman is an inactive user from 2005.
We saw your report so I'm sure someone will do the spit soon.
Great read so far, thanks for posting! Looking forward to the rest of it!
OP
Day 6
Sorry for no-showing on yesterday's post! Plans changed abruptly - Reggie didn't feel well and seems to be coming down with a monster of a summer cold. Wednesday was our planned rest day, so we took another day off (aside from meeting for league dinner trivia.)
Chris Brock, Reggie's former student and now business partner and co-instructor, dove with me today. We did our debrief discussions on land as a group of 3 so that Reggie could follow along with the commentary, offer feedback, and add it to my student records.
Before I say anything else, I want to highlight that Chris is a talented diver and a patient, insightful instructor. For anyone interested in pursuing cave training, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend that you consider Chris.
Dive #1 Highlights
The plan for this dive was to drop in the Ear, run a primary reel to the main line, and then head back to Parallel Lines to make a couple jumps and to go right at the tees until reaching the end of the line.
As we headed down the Run, I spent some time clipping and clipping the three safety reels on my right hip D-ring. Things were going swimmingly.
When we dropped through the Ear, I reached for my Sidewinder reel, which should have been on top. Pulled up a blue Dive Rite. Not it! Pulled up a tinier Sidewinder. Still not it! I finally pulled the reel I wanted and set it down, intending to put the other two back on the ring. I had a lot of trouble with this, because I didn't realize that I was trying to clip Reel 3 through already-clipped-on Reel 2.
I burned about eight minutes of penetration time (a/k/a, way too much) on getting the reel situation resolved. Once I tied off and started making placements, I felt like I had an easier time today than yesterday. Progress feels good!
We dropped out deco bottles and then I led the dive along the main line for the very first time. I didn't ascend to the ceiling quickly enough, so I had a different angle on the cave and felt momentarily disoriented and unfamiliar. Once the main line came to view in the Subway Tunnel, my mental map clicked back into place.
In order to extend my air supply today, I tried to keep my feet "off" as much as possible and focused on pulling. This helped me a small bit, but I burned so much air on my LP 95 tanks at the beginning of the dive and handling the task-loading of being a lead diver that I had to call my turn pressure right before we made it to the first jump.
On the way out, we did lights-on air share drills (as both donor and receiver) to satisfy the Apprentice-level requirements. Both drills went well. For our final exit, Chris signalled "primary light failure" right outside the Lips. I turned off my light and went for my left-side backup, which I managed to get on and fully-deployed before Chris finished the same task. (He mentioned this during the highlights reel portion of the debrief.)
Near the end of the dive, I started having moderate trouble holding trim when venting from my butt-dump. I looked at my SPG and noticed that the trouble started around 1000 psi, which was consistent with my experience last time. I rarely ever take my tanks this low at home, so I did not have a lot of data for mostly empty tanks. This made a touch-contact line drill too difficult to perform, so we punted a repeat to the next dive.
Dive #2 Highlights
Chris felt pretty strongly that the potential for me to successfully pull of this dive plan someday was there, so we decided to repeat it with the already-run primary reel. I asked Chris to lead this dive so that more efficient navigation = less chewing through air in the front of the cave. He counter-offered to lead until the first jump at Hill 400, and I would take over the nav to make the jumps.
During the first jump, the reel slipped out of my hand as I was getting ready to pass it through the loop. I made a quick drop to the floor (about 4-5 feet), retrieved it, re-wound it, and then made a successful tie-off behind the arrow. In the debrief, Chris mentioned that I handled the setback with the appropriate level of calmness and efficiency - I liked that feedback.
The second jump did not involve any dropped gear, but it was challenging because the double arrows to tie off were positioned no more than 18" below an overhang that was almost as deep as my extended arms. I had to approach it by rising from underneath and trying not to bang my head or valves.
We made the jump, I locked the reel, and took a couple of sanity breaths. This was an exciting moment - I made it here on LP85 tanks; in January, I needed LP108s to cover the same distance! When I checked my SPG, it was time to turn the dive. The tees will have to wait until next time...
On the way out, we planned to do lights-out air share drills at the Apprentice level starting near the Grim Reaper sign and our deco bottles. We had one false start because a scooter-and-stage dive team came through and needed access to their things.
When we restarted the drill, we were in a place where I needed to cross the line immediately. I remembered the proper steps, we made a good crossing, and continued onwards. At this point, I was getting slightly light and feeling challenged by my buoyancy.
I had to do something about it. My brain decided that taking Chris's right hand (in touch contact with my left arm), placing it back on the line, and squeezing for Stop! was my best option. With my newly-free left hand, I vented from my butt-dump, took a few seconds to ensure that I felt comfortable, and then put my left hand back on the line with enough force for Chris to feel my return. He linked back up and signalled for me to continue exiting. I repeated the maneuver another 2-3 times during the exit to maintain my sense of control. Chris included this as the highlight of highlights in the debrief - in the chaos of an emergency exit situation, it's important to carefully manage yourself (and by extension, your buddy) so that nothing gets worse or more complicated.
As a result of the successful dives and demonstrated improvement in my reel technique....
I AM NOW A CERTIFIED BASIC CAVE DIVER!
Sorry for no-showing on yesterday's post! Plans changed abruptly - Reggie didn't feel well and seems to be coming down with a monster of a summer cold. Wednesday was our planned rest day, so we took another day off (aside from meeting for league dinner trivia.)
Chris Brock, Reggie's former student and now business partner and co-instructor, dove with me today. We did our debrief discussions on land as a group of 3 so that Reggie could follow along with the commentary, offer feedback, and add it to my student records.
Before I say anything else, I want to highlight that Chris is a talented diver and a patient, insightful instructor. For anyone interested in pursuing cave training, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend that you consider Chris.
Dive #1 Highlights
The plan for this dive was to drop in the Ear, run a primary reel to the main line, and then head back to Parallel Lines to make a couple jumps and to go right at the tees until reaching the end of the line.
As we headed down the Run, I spent some time clipping and clipping the three safety reels on my right hip D-ring. Things were going swimmingly.
When we dropped through the Ear, I reached for my Sidewinder reel, which should have been on top. Pulled up a blue Dive Rite. Not it! Pulled up a tinier Sidewinder. Still not it! I finally pulled the reel I wanted and set it down, intending to put the other two back on the ring. I had a lot of trouble with this, because I didn't realize that I was trying to clip Reel 3 through already-clipped-on Reel 2.
I burned about eight minutes of penetration time (a/k/a, way too much) on getting the reel situation resolved. Once I tied off and started making placements, I felt like I had an easier time today than yesterday. Progress feels good!
We dropped out deco bottles and then I led the dive along the main line for the very first time. I didn't ascend to the ceiling quickly enough, so I had a different angle on the cave and felt momentarily disoriented and unfamiliar. Once the main line came to view in the Subway Tunnel, my mental map clicked back into place.
In order to extend my air supply today, I tried to keep my feet "off" as much as possible and focused on pulling. This helped me a small bit, but I burned so much air on my LP 95 tanks at the beginning of the dive and handling the task-loading of being a lead diver that I had to call my turn pressure right before we made it to the first jump.
On the way out, we did lights-on air share drills (as both donor and receiver) to satisfy the Apprentice-level requirements. Both drills went well. For our final exit, Chris signalled "primary light failure" right outside the Lips. I turned off my light and went for my left-side backup, which I managed to get on and fully-deployed before Chris finished the same task. (He mentioned this during the highlights reel portion of the debrief.)
Near the end of the dive, I started having moderate trouble holding trim when venting from my butt-dump. I looked at my SPG and noticed that the trouble started around 1000 psi, which was consistent with my experience last time. I rarely ever take my tanks this low at home, so I did not have a lot of data for mostly empty tanks. This made a touch-contact line drill too difficult to perform, so we punted a repeat to the next dive.
Dive #2 Highlights
Chris felt pretty strongly that the potential for me to successfully pull of this dive plan someday was there, so we decided to repeat it with the already-run primary reel. I asked Chris to lead this dive so that more efficient navigation = less chewing through air in the front of the cave. He counter-offered to lead until the first jump at Hill 400, and I would take over the nav to make the jumps.
During the first jump, the reel slipped out of my hand as I was getting ready to pass it through the loop. I made a quick drop to the floor (about 4-5 feet), retrieved it, re-wound it, and then made a successful tie-off behind the arrow. In the debrief, Chris mentioned that I handled the setback with the appropriate level of calmness and efficiency - I liked that feedback.
The second jump did not involve any dropped gear, but it was challenging because the double arrows to tie off were positioned no more than 18" below an overhang that was almost as deep as my extended arms. I had to approach it by rising from underneath and trying not to bang my head or valves.
We made the jump, I locked the reel, and took a couple of sanity breaths. This was an exciting moment - I made it here on LP85 tanks; in January, I needed LP108s to cover the same distance! When I checked my SPG, it was time to turn the dive. The tees will have to wait until next time...
On the way out, we planned to do lights-out air share drills at the Apprentice level starting near the Grim Reaper sign and our deco bottles. We had one false start because a scooter-and-stage dive team came through and needed access to their things.
When we restarted the drill, we were in a place where I needed to cross the line immediately. I remembered the proper steps, we made a good crossing, and continued onwards. At this point, I was getting slightly light and feeling challenged by my buoyancy.
I had to do something about it. My brain decided that taking Chris's right hand (in touch contact with my left arm), placing it back on the line, and squeezing for Stop! was my best option. With my newly-free left hand, I vented from my butt-dump, took a few seconds to ensure that I felt comfortable, and then put my left hand back on the line with enough force for Chris to feel my return. He linked back up and signalled for me to continue exiting. I repeated the maneuver another 2-3 times during the exit to maintain my sense of control. Chris included this as the highlight of highlights in the debrief - in the chaos of an emergency exit situation, it's important to carefully manage yourself (and by extension, your buddy) so that nothing gets worse or more complicated.
As a result of the successful dives and demonstrated improvement in my reel technique....
I AM NOW A CERTIFIED BASIC CAVE DIVER!
Congratulations! 
On the LP95s getting floaty. I know a number of sidemount divers who've told me their LP95s started getting really floaty around 1100 psi, give or take. So I'm not surprised you had issues maintaining time with them.
On the LP95s getting floaty. I know a number of sidemount divers who've told me their LP95s started getting really floaty around 1100 psi, give or take. So I'm not surprised you had issues maintaining time with them.
Congratulations!!!!! Way to go! That's a great first step!
Was the team with the scooters exiting or entering?
Was the team with the scooters exiting or entering?
OP
Hors d'oeuvres for thought:
* I showed enough reel improvement between Day 5 and Day 6 to earn the Basic Cave rating. My current level of proficiency will not cut it for Apprentice, so copious quantities of reel practice are in my future.
* I think I'm done with about 3/4 of the required drills for Apprentice (but see above, this is not the be-all and end-all).
* My range is a limiting factor right now. My homework also includes building cardiovascular fitness so that I can swim and breathe more efficiently in flow.
* In tandem with that, it's worth a mention that I live in a state of borderline anemia (tested, low MCHC). Chris's wife also tends to be anemic, so he's familiar with the fact that exertion requires more effort. We're keeping this fact in mind as I make progress in the future, because I may just have to stage extra tanks for certain conditions.
* As a result of my observations today (especially the LP 85 tanks), I think that I'm somewhere between 2-4 lbs. underweighted when my tanks go below 1000 psi. I'm going to dive LP 95 tanks tomorrow to see if that extra weight helps. If not, we'll look at adding weight via canister light, etc.
* We're diving Peacock tomorrow!
* I showed enough reel improvement between Day 5 and Day 6 to earn the Basic Cave rating. My current level of proficiency will not cut it for Apprentice, so copious quantities of reel practice are in my future.
* I think I'm done with about 3/4 of the required drills for Apprentice (but see above, this is not the be-all and end-all).
* My range is a limiting factor right now. My homework also includes building cardiovascular fitness so that I can swim and breathe more efficiently in flow.
* In tandem with that, it's worth a mention that I live in a state of borderline anemia (tested, low MCHC). Chris's wife also tends to be anemic, so he's familiar with the fact that exertion requires more effort. We're keeping this fact in mind as I make progress in the future, because I may just have to stage extra tanks for certain conditions.
* As a result of my observations today (especially the LP 85 tanks), I think that I'm somewhere between 2-4 lbs. underweighted when my tanks go below 1000 psi. I'm going to dive LP 95 tanks tomorrow to see if that extra weight helps. If not, we'll look at adding weight via canister light, etc.
* We're diving Peacock tomorrow!
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