Octopus and long hoses questions???

[dugout]

First I want to thank everyone for being so helpful on this forum.

Over the years I’ve either been involved in, or witnessed, 4 different OOA situations.

The first was a long time ago, early 80s, and the worst potential diving disaster I have ever seen. It was a drift dive and one of the divers has tank O-ring go away, in 90 feet of water, excellent visibility. My buddy is closer than his. The diver approaches and is a little freaked. We do not know him from Adam. My buddy, Paul, gives up his primary and before he gathers his octopus the guy has swung around behind him, has death grip on Paul’s tank valve, and his trying to surface, Paul in tow. We put an end to that and the rest is a long ugly story.

The second was yoke o ring failure three years later and I witnessed an underwater tug of war between the affected diver and his buddy. Again a pure panic and very ugly.

The third was a true OOA and the middle aged husband and wife team executed a textbook uneventful buddy breathing exercise. They didn’t have octopus 2nds.

I was involved in the fourth. This was in the keys. Again I saw the problem before the divers buddy did. He had a free flowing octopus which was undetected for a good while. Pressure was down to 200psi. I gave him my primary, 28” hose, but as I did it I was taking a death grip on the divers BC by his shoulder. I gathered my octopus 2nd, on a second 28” hose. There we were face to face, eye to eye, and yes, I maintained my death grip on him. I could see his eyes and visually settle the situation. We surface in that same position. I never gave up control of him or the situation.

I initially learned, in buddy breathing, to assist but protect ones self. The first instance above burned that into my soul forever. I don’t like 40” reg hoses, let alone 5 foot or 7 foot of hose. I would never let a diver, and my reg, more than 10” from my nose, let alone 5 or 7 feet away, tied to my SCUBA. No way! I’ll help, but it’s my air and my rules! I’m not a cave diver and I don’t do penetration wreck dives so there is no reason for lead and follow. If I had an OOA the last thing I would worry about is the freedom to independently adjust buoyancy and separation. I want air and I want to ascend as soon as possible. In fact, in the one I was directly involved in, the diver appreciated the fact that I took complete forceful control and managed the ascent.
Everyone seems to promote 5 and 7 foot hoses, now, what am I missing?

 

[captain]

I don't think you are missing anything. I too would like to maintain control and getting someones attention by looking them in the eye to try and calm them. Sort of like the slap in the face in the movies. I surely wouldn't want some panicked diver dragging me around by the hose.

 

[DeepBound]

Everyone seems to promote 5 and 7 foot hoses, now, what am I missing?

From what I've seen in real life diving, most people don't use 5- or 7-foot hoses for open water diving. Most people have a backup second stage on a 32" or 36" hose which they hope the panicking diver will take.

The more enthusiastic divers who are into wreck penetration and cave penetration just post online a lot more, and they tend to use long hoses.

There are also the DIR divers, who may or may not actually do cave and wreck penetration dives, but who base their diving practices on what the florida cave divers at the WKPP found to be the safest way of doing things. You might have noticed the DIR forum on here.

Neil

 

[ianr33]

Never been anywhere near a real OOA,have done lots of drill though and shared air at the end of many dives to extend safety stops/return to the entry point.

A long hose lets you swim/dive normally when sharing air.Makes it almost trivial.

If an airshare is an emergency/survival situation you need to dive with different buddies

 

[dugout]

I too would like to maintain control and getting someones attention by looking them in the eye to try and calm them. Sort of like the slap in the face in the movies.

Exactly... Physical confident control brings order and may even advert a panic situation.

 

[MaxBottomtime]

You can still hold a death grip and remain in close contact with an OOA diver when using a long hose. It does, however give you options. Once the diver is calm you can both make a safe, controlled ascent. There is no need to try to control the buoyancy of two divers. If you are on a shore dive you could even swim side-by-side back to the beach rather than surfacing immediately.
In a panic situation you want to be able to swing the paniced diver around and remain behind him so he cannot grab your mask, reg or attack you. Having a longer hose will allow you to do that without fear of tugging your donated reg out of his mouth. Also, some people are more prone to panic when someone is "in their face". Being able to see each other can help to calm the situation.

 

[dugout]

There are also the DIR divers, who may or may not actually do cave and wreck penetration dives, but who base their diving practices on what the florida cave divers at the WKPP found to be the safest way of doing things. You might have noticed the DIR forum on here.
Neil

Here is my take on the hyper tech diving initiatives. From what I have read. The entire concept, from equipment universalizing, through training, into the Zen aspects of the psyche, to certifications, (read as ranks), all emulate elite military training. This is what you take, this is where you put it; everyone on the team has a job and responsibilities. You do this, you act like this, and yes, you think like this. The team is only as strong as its weakest link, etc. There is nothing unique here. Technical climbers saw the virtues of this type of team training concept way before divers. Wana climb a mountain? Join our team.

I have had the distinct honor of spending time with many of our hardest special OPS troops. These boys and girls are awesome, but there are some draw backs to this type of training and what it takes to produce these troops.

Mainly, these troops DO NOT play well with others, outside of the team. When the team and your teammates are everything...well, anything outside of the team and your teammates are... well, nothing. This is unsettling to those who are "nothing". Everyone can’t be on the team, nor would they want to be. These troops are intolerant regarding “lesser” training and tend to trivialize the lesser training regimes. How could the discipline ever be perpetuated unless a certain elitism doesn’t accompany the efforts. It’s a simple matter of contrast. How could spec ops training, and troops be considered “better” unless the other training and troops are considered “worse”?

I am not judging, here. My intent is not to disparage the concept of Elite training. The fact is, the military acknowledges the issues, and this is why most spec ops units are isolated from the rank and file troops. In fact they do nothing to change the attitude of elite troops. What they do is to teach the general troops, in contact with them, how to deal with the issues. As an over simplification, …yes the dogs have an attitude and we want them that way. This is how to deal with the dogs…, type of thing.

Now back to diving. This type of individual training and commitment may be appropriate when it comes to deco deep cave, or deep wreck diving, just as it was to tech climbing. I don’t know as I don’t aspire to either type of diving. It is evident that those who do count themselves in these groups sometimes do not play well with others on this web site and sometimes trivialize typical recreational divers, and general dive training. Given my background, I will always excuse the behavior, knowing it is unavoidable. What I do have a problem with is taking a single isolated equipment configuration, like a 7 foot reg hose, and proposing that this is the most appropriate configuration for all recreational divers, based upon their personal training. This is just wrong!!! What is appropriate for the Team concept of diving, with well know skills in your teammate, may not be for a recreational diver who may find themselves assisting a complete stranger in a potential life threatening situation. Solo diving has a different set of challenges and one of them is being ready and prepared to assist a total stranger, SAFELY!!!

 

[dugout]

If an airshare is an emergency/survival situation you need to dive with different buddies

That is the point, I guess. You may know "your buddy" but sometimes you need to respond to a diver who is not your designated buddy. Then What! Read my post again and you willl see it can get real ugly, real fast.

 

[dugout]

You can still hold a death grip and remain in close contact with an OOA diver when using a long hose. It does, however give you options. Once the diver is calm you can both make a safe, controlled ascent. There is no need to try to control the buoyancy of two divers. If you are on a shore dive you could even swim side-by-side back to the beach rather than surfacing immediately.
In a panic situation you want to be able to swing the panicked diver around and remain behind him so he cannot grab your mask, reg or attack you. Having a longer hose will allow you to do that without fear of tugging your donated reg out of his mouth. Also, some people are more prone to panic when someone is "in their face". Being able to see each other can help to calm the situation.

You make some good points. One would need to be confident that they could get behind the panicking diver. I know he will initially be in front of me so personally I would rather keep him there. My belief is a panicked diver wants to be "saved" and the face to face control is calming. All it takes is a nod of the head and a well timed wink, maybe . Anyway, that is the way it worked the one and only time I did this live and in person.

 

[Nemrod]

From dugout:

"The first was a long time ago, early 80s, and the worst potential diving disaster I have ever seen. It was a drift dive and one of the divers has tank O-ring go away, in 90 feet of water, excellent visibility. My buddy is closer than his. The diver approaches and is a little freaked. We do not know him from Adam. My buddy, Paul, gives up his primary and before he gathers his octopus the guy has swung around behind him, has death grip on Paul’s tank valve, and his trying to surface, Paul in tow. We put an end to that and the rest is a long ugly story."


Again, this is the SOLO forum so why are we discussing buddy breathing or long hoses here? I f your solo you don't need an octapus on any length of hose, short, medium or long--your solo---you don't have a buddy. The octapus is not redundancy, it's only purpose is supplying a buddy with air when he/she has had a problem which you don't have because your solo. Redundancy, when needed by the solo diver, entails the use of independent systems, buddy bottle, independent doubles, isolation manifolded doubles etc--NOT an octapus.

BTW, not everyone promotes these long hoses, I promote double hoses! Further, the 40 inch hose on single hose is a popular length for those who route the regulator hose under their arm rather than over the shoulder. This is not uncommon and is how I set up my primary on a single hose--when I am so unfortuante as to have to use one of those things.

N
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