Old steels denied fills due to store "policy"

[BRT]

the reverse of this is when you take an old steel 72 in to get filled and the tank monkey fills it to 3000 thinking it’s an aluminum 80.

The reason to have LP tanks.

 

[markmud]

The original post in this thread was made about a year ago, and I did not notice it for a long time. I was not back in Florida until a few weeks ago, and when I went in to Force E, I asked them about their fill policy without mentioning this thread. They said they would not fill an aluminum tank made before 1989 (31 years ago). They said steel tanks had no limits. I then told them about this thread, and the people there were dumbfounded--they had never had such a policy. I also told Ana, who was also dumbfounded, and I am sure she was not making it up.

So something happened with some employee who clearly misunderstood something. That shop will fill steel tanks of any age, assuming they have had the standard inspections.

Hi Boulderjohn,

I think these two paragraphs below describes how this whole brew-ha started; it probably started with Force E:

"Years ago I came up with a theory that I called the reduction funnel, the process by which well-thought out concepts are gradually reduced of their completeness as they are taught and retaught and retaught until they become a few shouted slogans that may totally contradict the original intent of the complete message. Those shouted slogans can acquire a rigidity and absoluteness that take on the effect of scripture. I first noted it in relation to concepts that I was required to teach in the school district in which I worked. Those concepts made no sense to me, so I researched them and found that they were a perversion of the full system, with its primary tenets completely contradicting what the full version taught. When I showed that to my superiors, they were clearly uncomfortable, but they said "that's what we teach here" and required me to teach it. (Fortunately, it was abandoned years ago.) I think that sort of thing happens in many, many cases.

Several years ago I volunteered to do the video for a DIR-based training session. I worked very hard to get the very best shooting angles to show the key features of what was happening. I did flips to get into the best position quickly, swam upside down--whatever it took to get the camera pointing in the right direction. When we did the film study that evening, the instructor critiqued the student performance, but his harshest criticism was directed at me. He could not help but notice how often I was out of horizontal trim while filming. He was not joking."

As I recall you posted this in response to TsandM stating that perfect horizontal trim with a perfect frog kick were exactly what a diver should do in a cave or other environment where a silt-out is a real problem. Otherwise, swim in whatever position works for that scenario.

I think your theory (above) is a good one. It probably explains the origins of this thread and Force E's de facto policy.

It was probably never a de jure policy.

And that is my opinion, whether you like it or not is up to you.

cheers,
m

 

[Jcp2]

We have this in my company. Suggestions become guidelines. Guidelines become policy. Policy becomes rules.

 

[txgoose]

We have this in my company. Suggestions become guidelines. Guidelines become policy. Policy becomes rules.

We get this as well. "We aren't sure, so lets behave conservatively and review it when we have more experience, knowledge and skills." Which is very prudent, except the review rarely happens, and when they do the folks that came up with the conservative standard aren't around any longer. And so it sticks. The resulting paralysis can often hold back good progress.

 

[Boiler_81]

@markmud I think you hit the genesis of the issue. Ana was denied at one store, I was denied at another. When I was denied the fill, I asked to speak to the manager and was given the same story "old tanks could be made of bad alloy" No discussion of steel vs aluminum was going to change their mind.

 

[Manatee Diver]

We have this in my company. Suggestions become guidelines. Guidelines become policy. Policy becomes rules.

And some things that should not have been forgotten were lost. History became legend. Legend became myth. And for two and a half thousand years, the bad alloy passed out of all knowledge.

 

[Ana]

I don't know if Force E removed their head from their behind. Don't care if they choose to acknowledge the event or not, it was more than the denial on a Sunday I contacted them through their website asking for their "policy" and they responded asking me how old were my tanks.
I stop communications with them at that point. Good if they are behaving like non a$$holes these days, but I don't need to deal with them.
Found another place since Pompano Dive Center stopped being an option, and would buy a compressor if Force E becomes the only place in South Florida to get a fill.

 

[HalcyonDaze]

the reverse of this is when you take an old steel 72 in to get filled and the tank monkey fills it to 3000 thinking it’s an aluminum 80.

That happens to my LP 121s every now and then. Except they're mistaken for HPs and juiced to 3500 psi. My last fill one was loaded to 3700 and I purged about 300 psi out to spare the burst discs (which are supposed to go at 4000). But hey, on the next dive I essentially have double 80s in one tank, albeit it's a water heater that crushes my vertebrae and requires a doubles wing ...

I don't know if Force E removed their head from their behind. Don't care if they choose to acknowledge the event or not, it was more than the denial on a Sunday I contacted them through their website asking for their "policy" and they responded asking me how old were my tanks.
I stop communications with them at that point. Good if they are behaving like non a$$holes these days, but I don't need to deal with them.
Found another place since Pompano Dive Center stopped being an option, and would buy a compressor if Force E becomes the only place in South Florida to get a fill.

To respond to the OP, I've had my own issues with Force-E Riviera. I typically get my tanks hydro'd and vis'd in Miami, and the two shops I use both apply nitrox stickers that say good up to 40% O2. Nevermind that Austin's uses O2-compatible lube and o-rings on everything, I never use mixes higher than ~36 +/- 1% O2, and that "O2 clean" is really only sacrosanct until your first refill ... every single time I've taken my steel nitrox tanks into Force-E Riviera, they insist on pulling the valve off and making sure everything is "O2 clean" for their partial-pressure blending setup. Which means nowadays I either fill my tanks in Miami, pop across the bridge to Pura Vida, or drive a bit farther up US-1 to hit Scuba Works so I don't need to take extra time out of my morning for that Mickey Mouse bit.

 

[michael-fisch]

Why so many people put up with the dive store schennagins regarding tank fills is something that I cannot understand. Getting your own small new compressor will set you back less than 4k, and a used one in perfect condition can be found for half that.
No hydros, visuals, being able to fill anything you want, at any time you want, without having to drive to the dive store n wait or pick up the tanks on the following day has to be worth quite a bit.
Assuming you think your time is worth $25 an hour + the miles driven, having your own compressor quickly pays for itself.

Michael

 

[Lostdiver71]

I regularly do business with Force E in Riviera Beach and have been since they opened, their technician is the only one that I absolutely trust to service my regulators, he has been doing it for over 30 years. That being said I will not let them touch my tanks due to their policies on older tanks, 10 of my 12 tanks are over 30 years old and I personally know or have spoken to many people that have had problems with their various policies on tanks. They have some great people that work at the store but unfortunately, they have to follow corporate policies without exception. I am also limited on where I can fill my tanks as there is no need to O2 clean my tanks every year if I am using pre-blended Nitrox at less than 40% but some shops require that so I do not take my tanks to them. I have also worked at an LDS many years ago that did hydrostatic testing on-site and have seen many tanks fail due to abuse, I have even been at the shop when a tank valve blew off and went through the roof of the shop during a fill when the threads in the neck failed. I have seen the damage at several shops where tanks failed. one went through a concrete block wall! I also know of a dive boat that had an onboard compressor to fill the tanks, that were stored and filled in the racks while exposed to the elements and had a tank failure, at the valve threads, on a tank that was within both inspections. When they brought the rest of the tanks to the shop to be inspected they all failed due to corrosion, more than 40 aluminum tanks that were less than 10 years old! Every tank that I have seen fail was due to some form of abuse of the tank and I absolutely trust my old tanks as they are and have been well cared for over the years.