Open Water Courses and the Swim Test

[-hh]

Walter once bubbled...
Jason,

I've very impressed with your 31,500,000 (you did drop a zero, didn't you?) seconds of experience. That's a whole year! (of course if you didn't drop a zero, it's almost 5 weeks) In that year, how many dives have you logged? How much time do you have underwater?

Well, if its bottom time, and if we assume he was certified at minimum age (16, back then), that's 11 years since Certification.

1 year's worth of BT in 11 years calculates out to an average of 2:10 hours spent underwater per day, 7 days/week, 52 weeks/year, for over a decade. IMO, this ain't going to happen even if you live someplace wet and warm.

Dropping a zero works out to 13 minutes/day, or 1:30 hours/week, or 80 hours/year. Its doable but it depends on your environment: if you're up North and far from water, keep in mind that the average working Joe only gets 2-3 weeks of vacation per year...


-hh

 

[Big-t-2538]

o2scuba once bubbled...
I've heard other horror stories of instructors who require students to swim the length of the pool underwater, on one breath.

Asking students to do MORE than the requirements is far from reasonable, lenient or prudent.

Can I ask why you think one length underwater is a horror story??....

Can I also ask why you are opposed to asking students to exceed standards???...the standards are so goddamn low that anyone with enough $$$$$ can pass them....

O.K...rant over...

 

[Walter]

-hh,

He doesn't have a year underwater. He's been certified for a year.

o2scuba,

While PADI standards may be lax, they aren't that lax. PADI requires either a 200 (not 100) yd swim or a 300 yd snorkel. You are correct, PADI eliminated their underwater swim requirement. NAUI does still have a 50 ft required underwater swim.

NAUI (and some other agencies) do allow instructors to add in requirements. I, personally, believe this is a good thing for dive training. Depending on what standards your agency has set, I think it's not only reasonable, lenient and prudent, but necessary to produce safe competent divers.

Jason,

I've never commented on your diving ability, I have no idea what your abilities are. I have not only never seen you dive, I've yet to meet anyone who's seen you dive.

My comments were on your lack on experience. While you are certainly welcome to have opinions and to express those opinions, you can't expect me to give your opinions equal weight with the opinions of those with much greater experience.

 

[ScubaScott]

o2scuba once bubbled...



You ...THINK?????

You are half way through the class and you don't know what agency?

I am a PADI instructor so I don't know NAUI requirements. Anyone NAUI instructors care to comment on the weight retrieval?

I know pool bricks are used in lifeguard training, but I fail to recognise ANY value of asking SCUBA students to meet this requirement. Are you training to be a recreational diver, or a Navy Seal?

When you dive for a weight, you are holding your breath, definately not something you want to get the habit of while diving.

I've heard other horror stories of instructors who require students to swim the length of the pool underwater, on one breath.


As far as standards. Standards are set by the agency. PADI requires a 100yard swim and 10 minute saurface float (tread).

Asking students to do MORE than the requirements is far from reasonable, lenient or prudent.

The weight retrieval is a stress management/task loading exercise. The length of the pool underwater is also a stress management test. Do you have the piece of mind knowing that you could swim up from 75' on your last breathe if you had too?

None of these tests are done without the FULL explanations of the dangers of breathholding while diving, and diving on compressed gases - and under full supervision at all times.

If its the instructor that I think is teaching FreeFloat, she will need to work on her swimming skills, but she will be a "Grade A" OW diver when she passes the course.....

SS

 

[ScubaFishee]

o2scuba once bubbled...
When you dive for a weight, you are holding your breath, definately not something you want to get the habit of while diving.

I've heard other horror stories of instructors who require students to swim the length of the pool underwater, on one breath.

SSI requires demonstration of snorkeling skills, including free-diving and snokel clearing techniques, as part of the OW certification dives.

So if there is a problem with divers not remembering whether they're breathing a reg or not... or not knowing when they can hold their breathe or not, perhaps all agencies should ditch the use of snorkels completely...

 

[o2scuba]

Big-t-2538 once bubbled...


Can I ask why you think one length underwater is a horror story??....

Because I see no value in requiring this as part of a swim test (watermanship assessment).


Can I also ask why you are opposed to asking students to exceed standards???...the standards are so goddamn low that anyone with enough $$$$$ can pass them....

O.K...rant over...

Big t
Certainly you may ask. But do you think you could be just a tad more polite?
Don't be so defensive, I agree with you.
I was referring to the swim test. That is, afterall the scope of this thread. the 100 yard was a typo, thanks for the correction Walter.

I support teaching divers beyond 'minimum requirements" absolutely. In fact our training practices leave open water divers with skills that challenge many lds' rescue divers. We are extremely thorough.

scubafishee,
yes, PADI too teaches snorkelling/skindiving. But this thread is discussing swim tests.

scubascott,
We teach CESA to bring the peace of mind of knowing they can reach surface. That means swimming horrizontally in the pool WITH SCUBA. Practicing CESA with the reg in, exhaling continuously. Swimming the length of the pool underwater while holding your breath? How does this bring peace of mind. if students practice this way, they will be MORE likely to hold their breath in a real scenario?

Walter, PADI will not allow an instructor to "fail" a student because they could not complete the swim requirements beyond the PADI requirements. Encouraging students to be better swimmers is great, sure, I agree.



I believe that being able to swim 200 yards and tread for 10 minutes is enough for anyone to be a competent diver.

 

[Big-t-2538]

o2scuba once bubbled...


Big t
Certainly you may ask. But do you think you could be just a tad more polite?
Don't be so defensive, I agree with you.

<snip>

I believe that being able to swim 200 yards and tread for 10 minutes is enough for anyone to be a competent diver.

O.K...I see now, sorry about that, I apologize for any offense broadcasted...I thought you were referring to standards in general...that's my fault. I agree 200 yards and 10 minutes is adequate for the BOW...

 

[ScubaFishee]

o2scuba once bubbled...
scubafishee,
yes, PADI too teaches snorkelling/skindiving. But this thread is discussing swim tests.

Yes, it is... and my comment was in direct reference to your previous statement regarding "the horrors" of holding your breath while swimming ....

You do remember, don't you? The bad habit you brought up...

o2scuba once bubbled...
When you dive for a weight, you are holding your breath, definately not something you want to get the habit of while diving.

I've heard other horror stories of instructors who require students to swim the length of the pool underwater, on one breath.

 

[Walter]

"PADI will not allow an instructor to "fail" a student because they could not complete the swim requirements beyond the PADI requirements."

I am aware of that, in fact, that was my point. It is, I'm assuming, one thing you like about PADI. I, however, consider it one of the weaknesses of the PADI system. It's why you would be forced to certify a non-swimmer, while I could (not that this is an issue with regard to swimming as YMCA standards require a 300 yd swim) require the student to learn to swim. Other agencies (NAUI & YMCA are 2 examples) do allow their instructors to add requirements. You are handicapped in your ability to teach an excellent class with low standards and an inability to add requirements.

"I believe that being able to swim 200 yards and tread for 10 minutes is enough for anyone to be a competent diver."

I'm not sure I do, but I don't have that option, Y standards require 300 yds and 15 minutes as well as a 50 ft underwater swim. Do you believe a non-swimmer who can float for 10 minutes and snorkel 300 yds can be a competent diver?

 

[learn-scuba]

Walter once bubbled...
<snip>

Do you believe a non-swimmer who can float for 10 minutes and snorkel 300 yds can be a competent diver?

Well... and pardon me for butting in... speaking strictly for myself, I would be hard pressed to define someone who can float for ten minutes and snorkel 300 yards a "non-swimmer" -- I can't help but wonder if we're splitting hairs or perhaps even demanding too much.

The ability to be comfortable in the water is the key component to be measured while the definition of "swimmer" versus "non-swimmer" is really somewhat subjective.

In the real world, how often, if ever, is a diver expected to swim some notable distance without the aid of mask, fins, snorkel (unless he's one of the "I don't wear no stinkin' snorkel" types) and some sort of flotation -- wet suit, dry suit, BC?

I do require anyone in my course to complete the minimum standard for swimming -- 200 yards and 10 minute float for SSI -- but the thing I'm most evaluating is their level of comfort in the water because that's the item that's going to make or break them. Anyone who is not at ease in the water is a diver always on the brink of panic and that bothers me way way way more than the measurement of how for they we able to swim or how long they can float.

If you teach divers proper weighting, buoyancy control and to always dive with appropriate gear, survival swimming is as useful as teets on a bull.

Just my 2psi