"Open Water Diver Safe Cavern Dives" ???

[mainedvr]

Depends on the OW diver. I was an active OW diver for 29 years, during that time I exceeded the the certs I hold now, but I did not blindly attempt any underwater activity for myself or anyone else.

An OW diver should be able to make reasoned decisions on what dives they will make. Unfortunatly agencies teach rules and everyone knows that rules are made to be broken.

My hat is off to Scuba Noob and any other diver that makes informed decision on the dives they will or will not make.





Bob
-----------------------
A man's got to know his limitations.
Harry Callahan

I typically do not take an argumentitive tone and am not trying to belittle anyone or say I am perfect and have never broken a rule. But, I totally disagree with rules are made to be broken. Rules (while not always) are made to protect individuals or groups from things that they may not be aware of or to proctect the same from those that may want to cause us harm. Drunk driving laws are rules are they ment to be broken? I saw a video of a diver that was doing a body recovery, and while I do not know if the diver being recovered dove outside there training or broke any rules, the diver doing the recovery ended up having to be recovered to as he ended up dead. So, everytime a diver goes into the water to recover a diver that has died or is in trouble they run a risk too. (I know diving has its risk but that is not the same in my eyes) So when an OW diver dives a cavern they endanger not only themselves but others and who are we as individuals to make that choice for someone else. And we all know someone will go after them. And while you take your hat off to Scuba Noob for making an informed decision, how can that desicion be informed if they do not have all the information, and I know one may say maybe they do but until they have been in that enviroment they do not have the information they need, not from any book, or by word of mouth.

Hey everone is entitled to their own opinion and that is mine. Rules do get broken but that is not what they are made for.

 

[DevonDiver]

Unfortunatly agencies teach rules and everyone knows that rules are made to be broken.

The only "scuba rule" I know of is 'never hold your breath'.

Everything else is a recommendation - normally in the context of safe diving practices and/or a specific definition given to a qualification.

Definition of limitation of training - i.e. "This course trains you to do X and Y, but not Z".
That definition is NOT a prohibition or 'rule'. I've never seen it worded as such.

My hat is off to Scuba Noob and any other diver that makes informed decision on the dives they will or will not make.

An informed decision - for instance, recognizing the limits of their training and considering the safe diving recommendations made by the agency that trained them?

Or an informed decision that disregards the relationship between training and activity risk... and/or disregards scuba industry/community advice on the same?

I understand your point - that each diver is better served by making a personal decision on their limits (PADI et al, do recommend the setting of personal limits)... and that should be based on certain research.

However, some element of cynicism seems to be active - which misrepresents the recommendations of scuba training agencies - portraying the advice they give as some devious means to 'control' or 'manipulate' the diving population.

Let's see it for how it is.... good advice, meant to guide/support a diver into a prudent decision when setting their own limits.

 

[Superlyte27]

As a minor point of interest (at least to me) what was your standpoint before you became in instructor in this regard?

I'm glad you asked...
prior to receiving education and the knowledge that followed that education, I obeyed all 5 rules as I interpreted them. But I thought a lot of what we preached was silly.

---------- Post added ----------

Who's said Paradise is a 'safe' cavern at the OW level ????......At 160' [w/an additional 20' for the small cave at the bottom] it requires deco stops....AOW level's shouldn't be allowed to dive there, let alone OW !!!!!...Last I heard the owners were only allowing Cavern/Nitrox cert's or higher, w/a buddy dive there.........

You heard wrong. Anyone can dive Paradise with any cert. There's even an instructor in Tampa who does OW check out dives there. (I've tried to get his teaching credentials yanked).

---------- Post added ----------

I have no problem with you making an informed decision, but prior to yesterday, I had never heard of vis going to almost nothing in the ballroom. In fact, I've gotten several dozen emails about it. Apparently, not many other people knew it was possible either. So, how many people could possible get caught off guard by this? Honestly, I'm pretty informed when it comes to talking about Ginnie. I have 150+ cave dives there since January this year. Wow, we really don't know what we don't know. Even me.

 

[kenmida]

It maybe too dangerous.

 

[Trisha]

The closest thing I do to cavern diving is Morrison Springs, which does have a few brief overheads. That said, I've heard that if you use your flashlight, you've penetrated too far.

 

[billgraham]

Hey, a cavern dive quickly becomes a cave dive when the vis goes to zero. You can drown 50 feet from the entrance just as easily as you can 3000 feet back. Why not get a cavern certification if you want to do cavern diving?

 

[Superlyte27]

Call us scuba police or call us concerned. I barely care either way. You being an idiot will not kill me. It might affect my ability to make money, if these places get closed down due to idiots diving them, but I'll be safe either way.

With that said, my point in this thread (and you'll see I start very few threads, probably less than 5 a year) was to show those people who think that these caverns are always safe that they are indeed dangerous at times, and unpredictable. I understand the reasoning of some of the masses. "I've dove this cavern 200 times, it's worked just fine 200 times with no fear of dying at all". The problem is, and the point of this thread, is to show you that sometimes, cavern diving goes bad fast. Zero vis unexpectedly in any overhead environment can/will kill the untrained.

Listen, if your argument is that you don't need training, then you're foolish. I promise that these places do possess the chance to kill you given the right set of circumstances. Unfortunately, most divers (including myself) don't know what we don't know. The big problem is when you're too pig headed to admit that FACT. If your argument is that you'd like training, but simply can't afford it, but are going to dive anyway because you don't want to miss these awesome cavern dives, well, then you're still foolish, but at least there's hope. If this is the case, get with me. We'll work out a payment plan or something. Perhaps I can create the Darwin Award Rejected List Scholarship Fund or something. I want you to be able to see these dives safely.

For the majority of us, we're not trying to be elitists. We're not trying to be scuba police. We're not trying to spoil your fun. I personally think all people who have the desire should have the ability to cave and cavern dive regardless of income level. Let's see if we can get you there without putting yourself in danger. I believe it's the most awesome place on earth, and would love for you to see it safely.

 

[jmneill]

Call us scuba police or call us concerned. I barely care either way. You being an idiot will not kill me. It might affect my ability to make money, if these places get closed down due to idiots diving them, but I'll be safe either way.

With that said, my point in this thread (and you'll see I start very few threads, probably less than 5 a year) was to show those people who think that these caverns are always safe that they are indeed dangerous at times, and unpredictable. I understand the reasoning of some of the masses. "I've dove this cavern 200 times, it's worked just fine 200 times with no fear of dying at all". The problem is, and the point of this thread, is to show you that sometimes, cavern diving goes bad fast. Zero vis unexpectedly in any overhead environment can/will kill the untrained.

Listen, if your argument is that you don't need training, then you're foolish. I promise that these places do possess the chance to kill you given the right set of circumstances. Unfortunately, most divers (including myself) don't know what we don't know. The big problem is when you're too pig headed to admit that FACT. If your argument is that you'd like training, but simply can't afford it, but are going to dive anyway because you don't want to miss these awesome cavern dives, well, then you're still foolish, but at least there's hope. If this is the case, get with me. We'll work out a payment plan or something. Perhaps I can create the Darwin Award Rejected List Scholarship Fund or something. I want you to be able to see these dives safely.

For the majority of us, we're not trying to be elitists. We're not trying to be scuba police. We're not trying to spoil your fun. I personally think all people who have the desire should have the ability to cave and cavern dive regardless of income level. Let's see if we can get you there without putting yourself in danger. I believe it's the most awesome place on earth, and would love for you to see it safely.

I've seen them all many times quite safely and will continue to do so, but I do appreciate your concern for my well being. Glad to hear you will be fine if inexperienced divers cause the closing of all central Florida cave and cavern sites though...

 

[stairman]

Ginnie put in a grate to keep divers from entering the cave. The Ginnie cavern[Ballroom] is an overhead dive. There is a permanant line[rope] running thru the middle and on that rope, a diver could make it to safety in zero vis. However its possible that one may not be able to find that rope in bad vis. A cavern diver is suppose to run his own line into a cavern and if tied off to the back wall, not stray from it too far. With the rope in place, no reels are used but its very possible to have trouble finding it in a blowout. 99% of the time the cavern is clear and even diveable at night since the basin is lit and Ginnie enjoys a good revenue from openwater divers there. Me being cave I stay in the devils cave section. Things can happen that are unexpected and yesterday something did. Ive been to Devils Den, Blue Grotto and Paradise as well and they all have a safe track record with OW divers. Its all good till something bad happens, and then you have to lean on your redundant gear and training. Without much of either, you may be doomed. IMO a cavern course will make a better diver of anyone and is highly reccomended if overhead environment are confronted in your future.

 

[jmneill]

Ginnie put in a grate to keep divers from entering the cave. The Ginnie cavern[Ballroom] is an overhead dive. There is a permanant line[rope] running thru the middle and on that rope, a diver could make it to safety in zero vis. However its possible that one may not be able to find that rope in bad vis. A cavern diver is suppose to run his own line into a cavern and if tied off to the back wall, not stray from it too far. With the rope in place, no reels are used but its very possible to have trouble finding it in a blowout. 99% of the time the cavern is clear and even diveable at night since the basin is lit and Ginnie enjoys a good revenue from openwater divers there. Me being cave I stay in the devils cave section. Things can happen that are unexpected and yesterday something did. Ive been to Devils Den, Blue Grotto and Paradise as well and they all have a safe track record with OW divers. Its all good till something bad happens, and then you have to lean on your redundant gear and training. Without much of either, you may be doomed. IMO a cavern course will make a better diver of anyone and is highly reccomended if overhead environment are confronted in your future.

I couldn't agree with you more. I have my AOW coming up next week and will be doing Cavern next month. I am only glad the good people that own these places (granted it's risk vs reward for them in some cases) afford me the luxury of signing a piece of paper saying that I'm a grownup and take responsibilty for actions and allow me to dive with OW. While money (as someone eluded to in an earlier post) has not stopped me furthering my SCUBA education, time has. I work six days a week and have to be available by phone all day on the seventh. The springs spoken of here along with the many others in Florida provide me with a way to forget about everything, if just for a couple hours every couple weeks. It's risk vs reward, and I have been rewarded over and over again for taking the risk.