OUT OF AIR - Last ditch effort breath from you BCD

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Thanks Starboard Tack. I was trying to envision something more radical. The situation you describe is probably the most likely scenario and should be well within the diver's ability to control / avoid. Is there such a thing as a sudden failure of the 1st stage regulator, which wouldn't provide that degree of warning? I've heard of 2nd stage regulators going free-flow, but not of 1st or 2nd stages closing down completely.
 
It's an interesting discussion. I don't think breathing off the bc is a good plan because for one thing I would be afraid there could be water in the inflator line that could choke you and make things worse, but thats already been said I just noticed.

John C.
 
diveroflove:
I would like to say sorry, I dident think this discussion would turn into an attack on me. I wont post here anymore, I was simply asking what you guys thought about the idea. I think its stupid personaly, I dont think It would work, im just trying to find out but it turned into an attack against me. I am sorry.
DOL,
I am not going back to read all of these posts to identify which are attacks. However, we have a link in every post [!] which will report this post for you. PLEASE take the time and click ANY post you think might be an attack. We simply don't allow that here. However, we DO allow a difference of opinion and one should never assume that such, no matter how passionately stated is an attack on you personally.
 
Sideband:
I believe that is the difference between a ballanced and unballanced first stage.

Joe
Not necessarily, an unbalanced diaphragm first stage breaths easiest at low pressure; an unbalanced piston first stage gets harder to breath at low pressure. Balanced first stages don't provide much difference at all in the breathing between high and low pressure until the tank pressure reaches the interstage pressure, at which time there will be a lag in response.

The old single stage double hose regulators with an upstream first stage (e.i. the "Mistral") really started breathing nicely at less than 1000 psi. At 500 psi, it was a dream to breath, and you knew you were getting low on air:wink:

Some of the really old systems (1960s and early 1970s, with Healthways regulators especially) had what is called a "calibrated orifice" design, which caused a restriction in breathing at about 300 psi. They had a small orifice that the diver breathed through, which made the diver feel the tank was low by increasing the breathing resistance. This was an alternative to the J-valve reserve, and was called the "constant reserve" or "restrictor reserve."

New regulators have very large openings internally to increase flow at depth. This, plus the balanced first stage design, makes it very difficult without an SPG to know when you are getting low on air. It also vastly improves the air flow performance characteristics of the regulator at low tank pressure, which is desireable.

Concerning breathing off a BC, I would hesitate to do it unless i couldn't reach the surface and it was a last resort. There could be all sorts of nasty bugs (fungus, molds, etc.) growing inside the BC. But breathing off the BC is possible if there is air in there. The air will will expand, and because the BC has flexible walls, the physical act of breathing off it is no problem (although you may get some water too).

But all this talk about breathing off the BC or out of a tank with "zero" guage pressure as you ascend is not really necessary. You have all the air that you need in your lungs already. If you go back to your physics of diving, and look at Boyle's Law, it states that "at a constant temperature, the volume of a gas varies inversely with the pressure." (New Science of Skin and Scuba Diving, Council for National Co-operation in Aquatics, 1968, page 28) We know that the pressure doubles at 33 feet, which means you have two surface lungs full of air at that depth. At 66 feet, it triples, which means you have now three surface lungs full of air. At 99 feet, you have 4, and so on. You must constantly exhale on a swim to the surface on scuba to eliminate the potential for lung overpressure injuries. This also means that you can get to the surface from almost any depth by continually exhaling as you go. If you had an OOA situation, and exhaled fully and got no air at all from your regulator at 99 feet, if you ascend to 66 feet you have a full lung full of air due to the lessening pressure and would have to exhale from there (there is residual air in your lungs that you cannot exhale).

Frederick Dumas (Cousteau's team member) taught diving to the French Navy in the early 1950s, before actual courses had been developed. Their "checkout" dive was described on page 180 of Jacques Yves Cousteau's book, The Silent World, (Harper & Brothers Publishers, New York, 1953):

At the end of the course the honor students swim down to a hundred feet, remove all equipment and return to the surface naked. The baccalaureate is an enjoyable rite. As they soar with their original lungful, the air expands progressively in the journey through lennening pressures, issuing a continuous stream of bubbles from puckered lips.

While I would not recommend this today (today's divers are sometimes not comfortable enough in the water to "enjoy" such a ride, and today's equipment makes it difficult too), I wanted to illustrate that with compressed air and no overhead environment, OOA is not the problem it is made out to be. But we now have people routinely getting into decompression situations, where they cannot simply swim to the surface when out of air.

SeaRat
 
diveroflove posts:
#4 exactly, I think it should be taught as common practice

#9 That is exactly my point even if you have to recycle the air for 10 seconds atleast you will have a chance because some of use if we are 30 feet down cant exhale the whole way up

#29 I would like to say sorry, I dident think this discussion would turn into an attack on me. I wont post here anymore, I was simply asking what you guys thought about the idea. I think its stupid personaly, I dont think It would work, im just trying to find out but it turned into an attack against me. I am sorry.
 
Oh yes,
#13 I know it is not a good system but I just brought it up. In reality it wouldent work

#17 I am a divemaster

#18 Well, yes you should return at 500 psi, but sometimes it is not possible
 
John C. Ratliff:
At 99 feet, you have 4, and so on. You must constantly exhale on a swim to the surface on scuba to eliminate the potential for lung overpressure injuries.
I've done this as a drill during a CMAS-course, ascending from 100 ft. It works, and it's a great eye-opener. I feel much more relaxed now on recreational dives, knowing the surface is always within reach.

That said, I cannot imagine running out of air at depth other than by having an o-ring fail. I witnessed this happening to another buddypair last year. The blowing tank lasted long enough for them to reach the surface without having to resort to the octopus.
 

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