out-of-shape divers doing things like diving the doria

[StreetDoctor]

Mental. You've paid lots of money to get there and are beat to crap getting your gear through NYC out Long Island to Montauk, only to have a long, long steam out there. You're beat to crap before things start.

It's not deep, but deep enough to get you into trouble. The current can be more than a "little" and then there's the penetration, which most people really don't do to that extent. It's a large object that isn't cleaned up.

Some guy comes up with nice plates and then you need to go get some. Add non-local diver to that mix and it starts adding up.

The FAT guy from Brooklyn can beat the traffic and is probably already asleep on the boat as you scramble to load your gear!

-matt

Ehhh I guess I just don't get it because I've never been diving in the NE, and I don't care about collecting artifacts. If I'm paying lots of money I'm definitely not going to feel rushed, although if I'm paying that much chances are I'll be there at least a day early to get setup and check out the boat accommodations/meet the captain, no matter how bad traffic is LOL. (We have traffic here in Chicago too ) As for the local divers... well I'd rather not get into it, I don't want to stereotype and I've only met a handful of "NE wreck divers"

To be honest there's a ton of other wrecks I think I'd rather do then spend a lot of money on a chance, if conditions are bad that often. I think the Doria still has a lot of hype because of all the books written on it and the deaths in the past. With new technology more available (helium) I guess I just don't believe in all the hype.

 

[berk]

Ehhh I guess I just don't get it because I've never been diving in the NE, and I don't care about collecting artifacts. If I'm paying lots of money I'm definitely not going to feel rushed, although if I'm paying that much chances are I'll be there at least a day early to get setup and check out the boat accommodations no matter how bad traffic is LOL. (We have traffic here in Chicago too ) As for the local divers... well I'd rather not get into it, I don't want to stereotype and I've only met a handful of "NE wreck divers"

To be honest there's a ton of other wrecks I think I'd rather do then spend a lot of money on a chance, if conditions are bad that often.

Oh, the China will call you; it will call to you.

 

[berk]

Certainly scarier wrecks if you want a little pucker fun and some street cred in NJ! Just dive the Choapa. (and close to shore; $150 vs $1500)

 

[DCBC]

Skill only takes you so far. The point is when the you know what hits the fan that you have the necessary fitness to deal with the situation. Sudden current, a difficult rescue in high seas. If all your diving is in fairly benign water then fitness may not be so important.

Now your talking! Good Navy Diver fitness; its 4 am, a mile swim in 4 foot waves and cold water before breakfast. Then it's time for a 5 mile run, then out to the ocean to doff and don full scuba equipment in 100 feet of water. "You have to have the necessary fitness to deal with the situation." LOL

 

[Thalassamania]

Hmmm ... according to the linked study, 13 METS is defined as "Any competitive activity, including those that involve intermittent sprinting - running competitively, rowing competitively, bicycle riding".

So anybody who doesn't compete in some sporting activity should be barred from diving?

What, exactly, is DAN trying to accomplish with that recommendation? Turn diving into another competitive sport? That is just wrong.

The longer I dive ... the more I learn ... the more I question some of the conclusions that come from that organization. I have to wonder what their agenda is, who's driving it, and why.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Their agenda, unfortunately, appears to be profit for individuals in the organization and always taking such a "safe" stance that is often borders on the useless, but it does assure that they are "right" and minimizes the opportunity for lawsuits.

I gave up on them years ago. I also question any diver that takes "their" word as law.

I agree,

Advising divers to be fit seems quite consistent with their stated mission:
...
Is there a hidden agenda that I'm missing?

The agenda is hidden, that means it is not found in their sated mission ... duh!

And how does encouraging divers to be fit an indication of corruption or a corrupt practice..

It doesn't, but is also such an obvious piece of advice that I think it almost useless, from an operational standpoint.

Old news, Tropicalwolf, and I have posted on that issue a number of times myself (here and here, with this link) to throw some cold water on the DAN love-fests that seem to spontaneously arise around here pretty regularly. The question is, how is DAN advocating fitness for divers inconsistent with their stated mission?

It is not, but it is just "mom and apple pie" window dressing that covers up some real problems and issues. The level of fitness and their way of testing it, while all very, very scientific is, IMHO, rather arcane and more than a little bit on the high side. Something more on the lines of swim 440 yards in full gear, in such and such a time without getting winded, I would find more useful.

Their "mission" can say whatever they want, it's still just a bunch of empty "wet"suits.

Besides, do we really need a "hidden" agenda when it's clear their agenda is $

Sorry to say, but it appears that you are correct.

Skill only takes you so far. The point is when the you know what hits the fan that you have the necessary fitness to deal with the situation. Sudden current, a difficult rescue in high seas. If all your diving is in fairly benign water then fitness may not be so important.

We can say any guide line about anything is "arbitrary" that doesn make it not revelent.

I think I said something like that at the beginning of the thread.

Most of the time diving, even rather extreme diving, requires neither fitness nor brains. When things start to go wrong, brains help. When thing continue to go wrong brains and fitness help.

Now your talking! Good Navy Diver fitness; its 4 am, a mile swim in 4 foot waves and cold water before breakfast. Then it's time for a 5 mile run, then out to the ocean to doff and don full scuba equipment in 100 feet of water. "You have to have the necessary fitness to deal with the situation." LOL

It's best to have both fitness and brains, the problem with the fitness addicts is they oft think that fitness can be substituted for brains (by brains I mean both knowledge and skill). I don't think this works out too well ... although the opposite is true, brains can often be substituted for a degree of fitness.

 

[vladimir]

The agenda is hidden, that means it is not found in their stated mission ... duh!

Hidden from all but you and NWGratefulDiver, apparently. As I indicated above, I am not one of the DAN faithful that seem to make up the bulk of Scubaboarders. Nevertheless, it's hard for me to see evidence of the conspiracy here that is so obvious to you. They promote dive safety and recommend fitness...very suspicious.

 

[Thalassamania]

What is suspicious is not their stated mission, that's out front, but rather all the ornaments (that make money for their officials) that they hang on their tree.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Hidden from all but you and NWGratefulDiver, apparently. As I indicated above, I am not one of the DAN faithful that seem to make up the bulk of Scubaboarders. Nevertheless, it's hard for me to see evidence of the conspiracy here that is so obvious to you. They promote dive safety and recommend fitness...very suspicious.

Uh ... please read what I wrote ... carefully this time ...

I have to wonder what their agenda is, who's driving it, and why.

I didn't say I knew what their agenda is ... I said I wonder what it is.

Do you understand the difference between those two concepts?

I really don't like it when people claim I said something I didn't say. That's just a lazy way to make an argument.

And I never said recommending fitness was a bad thing ... I said recommending an exceptionally high degree of fitness ... and doing so in terms that make it sound like something competitive ... is wrong.

Diving's not a competitive sport ... it's a recreational activity. One that tens of thousands of people who are well beyond their "competitive sport" years participate in safely and enjoyably every year.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[vladimir]

Uh ... please read what I wrote ... carefully this time ...



I didn't say I knew what their agenda is ... I said I wonder what it is.

Do you understand the difference between those two concepts?

I really don't like it when people claim I said something I didn't say. That's just a lazy way to make an argument.

I'm trying to think of something I care less about than your likes and dislikes, but I can't.

And I never said recommending fitness was a bad thing ... I said recommending an exceptionally high degree of fitness ... and doing so in terms that make it sound like something competitive ... is wrong.

You seized upon DCBC's link, misunderstood it, and ran with it. He linked to a study validating the use of questionaires as a predictive tool for exercise tolerance. You said:

13 METS is defined as "Any competitive activity, including those that involve intermittent sprinting - running competitively, rowing competitively, bicycle riding".

That is not the definition of 13 METS, and the study you are quoting doesn't say that it is. That was used to help the patients in the study identify an activity that would be near their tolerance for exercise and correlate it to METS, which vary from person to person. Do you understand the difference between these two concepts? Go back and reread the study...carefully this time.

 

[terrylowe]

This is from Wikipedia...the gospel of definitions... "Physical fitness is considered a measure of the body’s ability to function efficiently and effectively in work and leisure activities, to be healthy, to resist hypokinetic diseases, and to meet emergency situations."
Based on this definition, you are considered fit enough for diving if you can can enjoy the dive and if you can to respond to "emergency situations". Of course with diving, training and experience helps a person prepare for an emergency situation.

There is no magic mathematical formula to define "fitness".

So...we can all be nice now..shake hands and make up.