OW certs at altitude. Which Acency?

[GreenDiverDown]

It appears that two of our fellow boarders who trained at a significant altitude recently had a disappointing OW class:

http://www.scubaboard.com/t20832/s.html

Their experience highlights the importance of learning special, or as BRW put it, “need to know” information that isn’t covered in most OW classes where altitude is not an issue.

Having not received this critical information they were unprepared to dive in conditions similar to their training and, it seems, had a scary experience soon after certification:

http://www.scubaboard.com/t18231/s.html

Looking through PADI’s General Standards and Procedures, the only ‘requirement’ for the instructor teaching at altitude is that he or she should use theoretical depths when determining maximum depths for training dives. Even this ‘requirement’ is found only in the FAQ section of the S and P. I find this interesting because all other requirements are highlighted in bold print. These ‘bold print’ standards are directives that must be adhered to. For instance, if a student will be using a drysuit during certification, the instructor must have a confined water session with that student in the suit prior to using it in open water.

I would guess that if an instructor called PADI for clarification he or she would be told that they should cover all pertinent information required to safely dive under the conditions that will be found at the open water training site. Yet, it seems to be a glaring omission in the standards.

I bring this up for several reasons:

1. Students certifying at altitude should be aware of the need to know:
a. How to determine their pressure group on arrival to altitude.
b. How to interpret their pressure gauge.
c. The difference between actual and theoretical depths and how to use a Theoretical Depth at Altitude Table.
d. The importance of using theoretical depths when calculating pressure groups.
e. How maximum depths change when at altitude.
f. The importance of a slower ascent rate.
g. Hypoxia and hypothermia considerations.

2. I would like to know what PADI instructors believe is required of them when teaching OW at altitude.

3. I would like to know what other agencies require. I am looking for training standards and not ‘what you do.’(I’m sure most conscientious PADI instructors cover the above points.) Here is a chance for you guys and gals of the Y, SSI, and NAUI to shine. Many of you like to say your agency is better than PADI. Well I’d like to know if your agency is better at altitude… and not just at sea level.

SA

 

[neil]

Stephen,
Good post and great questions.


I just spent some time with the NAUI S&P and the only mention of altitude diving is as an elective dive for the Advanced Course, and that no dive in a recreational course may exceed the sea level equivalent of 130 ft. (Policies, p 2.16). As a matter of note, there is no altitude specialty on the selected specialties list. (However any NAUI instructor can request permission to teach one by meeting specific requirements). Not any better guidance than the PADI Manual.

NAUI instructors may use the Buhlmann tables if they want, so we DO have altitude tables if needed.

Neil

 

[GreenDiverDown]

neil once bubbled...
Not any better guidance than the PADI Manual.

That is disapointing. How about SSI. Rick? Lead_carrier? And the YMCA? Walter?

SA

 

[Lead_carrier]

Sorry do dissapoint you Stephen, I can't harp that one is any better than the rest, all of my training is done at or close to sea level. My standards also tell me to teach for the conditions that we will be diving in. I do tell students about altitude diving, and why we use different tables. I also let them know that if they ever want to dive at altitude that I will get altitude tables for them and help them learn how to do the conversions, or put them intouch with a shop that can help them dive safely. I can't speak about how OW classes are done from any agency because I'm not there but it does pose an interesting question.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Lead_carrier once bubbled...
Sorry do dissapoint you Stephen, I can't harp that one is any better than the rest...

Actually, I don't see you as one that would put down another agency. I asked only because I know that you, like Rick, are an SSI instructor. The only boarder that I am aware of that is affiliated with the Y is Walter, even though he can... at times... be a bit...hmm...proud of his agency.

Anyway...

Dang it...I was hoping that one of the agencies would specifically require this.

If the agency doesn't spell it out then some instructors will not feel bound to teach this vital information and the student walks away not knowing the difference. They get a C-card that says they are certified to dive in the conditions under which they were trained yet, they have not been given all that they must know to do this safely. How can an instructor tell his students that they are now prepared to dive... but that it is not safe for them to dive where they just finished training until they take another class?

I just find it really odd. As specific as the standards are, why has this been left out? It is disappointing.

Maybe the YMCA will come through for us.

Here is another question. If this was to be included in the standards, at what altitude should this be required? 1000 feet is generally regarded as an altitude dive. There are a lot of instructors out there who are teaching above this relatively low elevation.

SA

 

[Bubble Boy]

Most of the NAUI and ACUC instructors I know (in this area) teach altitude diving. Any agency that uses the DCIEM tables will obviously instruct on altitude diving.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

but I'm looking for agency standards.

SA

 

[Walter]

Stephen,

Good question. As for the Y standards, this topic is not covered as clearly as it could be. I can read where a prudent instructor would find the requirement. The problem is a prudent instructor wouldn't look for it, he would just teach it. Someone cutting corners could make the argument it is not required. I will write to the YMCA SCUBA National Advisory Committee asking them to address this short coming in YMCA standards. There should be no wiggle room.

Thanks for bringing up this issue. It looks like several agencies should take immediate action.

Walter

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Walter, you are fortunate to have an agency that has responded positively to your suggestions in the past and likely will do so in the future. (Either the Y has an open ear or you've got clout.) Perhaps the Y will correct this oversight but I fear others will not. Strange it is that I never saw this before. I feel bad for ScubaDon and SMKchef and the many others who may take unwitting risks because they don't get the training they deserve.

I suspect that many well meaning instructors have missed this point. I mean we typically don't think too much about our elevation. Ask the average instructor what his or her elevation is and, unless they live in the mountains, I bet they don't know. The only reason that I am familiar with the elevation of the reservoirs here in the desert is because I’m an avid bass fisherman…the levels fluctuate with water usage and ya gotta know what the lakes are doin’ to catch fish.

SA

 

[MikeFerrara]

If instructors and DM can take folks into wrecks and caves without the right training or equipment what's a little altitude dive more or less?