Firstly, please realize this is a debate, not a personal arguement. Spending 45 minutes of my time (
after spending all day diving and teaching...and still not eaten lunch at 8pm) isn't for my benefit. I am trying to help....
You seem to be one of these people, that follow a rule book, chasing down anyone that takes a slightly different path than stated, but completely lacks the logic to get through life tactfully or with the open mind that your opinion isn't always right.
Yes and no. The 'rule book' does a job of keeping divers safe. After all, those rules are based on real fatality reports.. and serve to keep divers within a conservative model and to increase their training and experience progressively.
Many of the senseless and avoidable deaths in recreational scuba stem from a disregard of this 'rule book'.
If you study the 'Standard of Safe Diving Practices' you can clearly identify how many accidents (
have a look at the D.A.N. and BSAC annual reports) could have been avoided.
Break the 'rules' and, statistically, you are more likely to become one of those needless scuba deaths that happen
every week somewhere around the world.
Deep diving kills people. Penetration/Overhead diving kills people. Concealing medical issues kills people. etc etc
Start allowing yourself to get tempted into this way of diving...and someday it can happen to you. Of course, nobody ever believes they could be the person who ends up dead....
As you gain more experience...have more near misses...see more people lose out to Darwin's Law..... it teaches you to respect the dangers.
Otherwise, surely, with my experience... I should be amongst the most cocky, risk-taking divers. There is a reason I am not.
From my experience, the most complacent (
dangerous) divers tend to be at AOW level. Why? Because they have sufficient experience to feel comfortable in the water, but insufficient experience (
to respect the dangers) and insufficient education (
the rescue diver course should be a real eye-opener).
The next dangerous level is DM Trainees... because they get another ego/confidence boost.. but
the majority of them still don't have any real experience to quantify that.
The diving system tends to have some 'levels' that develop confidence faster than ability. AOW and DMT are the worst.
But, seeing as you are an instructor, i will kneel down before you and hold my tongue.. pfft
My status/qualification has little to do with it. However, if I wanted information, guidance and advice about a subject that I was inexperienced in.... and I was talking to someone with 16 years experience in that subject, who lived in that work, day-in, day-out.... then I would certainly find some value in listening to them... even if I didn't understand or agree with those points at the time.
I NEVER said that i disagreed with my training, did i? I questioned why i was restricted to 30m.
Depth is a very subjective issue. It is easy to get drawn deeper and deeper. Why stop at 30m? I feel fine at 40m. So why stop at 40m..... it's just a small drop down to 45m.... Hmmm...here I am at 45m and I have no problems. Next dive, maybe I will go to 50m?
30m is a nice cut-off. I enables most of the diving you would want to do, without any common/serious issues of narcosis impairment. It is possible to CESA from 30m (40m is an extra 30secs-1 min ascent). 30m has a reasonable NDL and you consume less air. 40m is considerably easier to accidentally go into deco... whilst also finding yourself low on air... a
bad situation.
Now if this was SO clear cut, why would i have tagged my question on the bottom of someones elses thread which is asking the same thing? The reason this seems stupid to me, is that you can continue your diving education to the point of taking other divers on dives, but have no training below 30 metres.. That scares me.
A lot of people have no interest in depth, for depth's sake.
If everyone was focused on exceeding depth limitations, why do tech divers represent only (approx) 1% of the diving population?
I would not want to be assisted by a DM, or instructed by an instructor that has not had that experience. I think it is a hole in the training system, that is there just for the sake of making a few extra hundred dollars out of people.
Where would you draw the line?
Why only instructors who have dived to 40m? Why not just limit yourself to tech instructors?
I don't know how you envisage the Deep Course.... but all I can say is that
my course does benefit divers greatly...especially those with an interest in eventual progression to tech diving. Not every instructor trains the same though.
And really... it isn't a waste of money. There are more issues to consider at 40m than there are at 30m. It may feel the same (as it does at 50 or 60m), but the risks are higher. Being prepared for those risks makes you safer.
of course...you
can self-educate yourself on those issues. But how do you know if you are doing it right? How do you know if you have covered every eventuality? What
if you have a knowledge/skill gap?
Self-education and learning from progressive experience is fine... but it is a process of
trial-and-error. The troubles is...every now and then... those errors kill divers.
..but that's okay if it saves you a couple hundred bucks.....
As a whole, i appreciate the system very much. It has enabled me to begin my career in diving and is something that i will never become complacent about. But, not having a more comprehensive schedule in the advanced open water and doing away with the specialty is silly.
It's a progressive, modular, system. It works well if you approach it that way.
You seem to be out to make yourself sound impressive Devon Diver, and let me assure you, you have. So i wont continue to buy into this debate with you. I know i am inexperiemced in the grand scheme of things, i will always continue to learn.
Please rest assured, I don't come to the forum to try and sound impressive. I teach divers every day of my life... so I don't need to get an online ego trip and don't feel I have anything to 'prove'.
However, when I was taught to teach (in the military) it was always stressed that you should explain your experience, so that people understand the credibility of your teaching. I can state my opinions... or I can state my opinions and the basis for having them.
The basis for my opinions in my debate with you are:
1. I am a full-time dive professional (
I teach many OW, AOW and Deep courses).
2. I manage a PADI 5* IDC Center (
validates my understanding of the PADI system and reason behind their recommendations).
3 I am also a certified instructor with BSAC, SSI and DSAT (tech),
so I have a wider understanding of diving tuition than just the PADI system.
4. I have conducted real-life rescues and I teach rescue divers regularly (
validates my opinions on safety/rescue issues).
5. I am a tech instructor (
validates a broader knowledge base than basic recreational diving on issues of depth).
6. I have logged over 4000 dives, many of them deep/deco dives (
validates the fact that I have had the opportunity to encounter and resolve numerous problems and dangers).
That's not showing off... it's just a statement of fact. Neither is it a form of pising contest...what would I have to gain from that, other than looking like a dick?
Just like you need to perfect your back kick so you can stop silting up the wrecks for everyone, i will perfect my diving in every facet.
Very true. I believe there is no end to perfection. I dive wrecks every day (
so nice to work in Subic Bay!) and I don't kick up silt when leading recreational divers...those people don't go into areas that are very hazardous..... but, I also conduct 'technical' penetrations in heavily silted, deep wrecks... and silting could kill me. I don't stop practising skills that keep me alive.
But let me assure you that with your attitude, you are going to turn most people off from accepting your advice, because you want to ram it down peoples necks. As you say, you don't know what you don't know, so let me help YOU by saying that you have come across in this thread like an idiot.
I think you misinterpreted my intentions. I don't want to belittle you. Every diver, regardless of experience was a newbie once. However, to state the
basis for my opinions can be misunderstood... it is not a comparison of you vs. me. It is just so that you can understand the experience and training that lead me to those opinions...and that fact that there is a concrete, proven reason for having those beliefs.
