PADI AOW vs SSI deep diver qualifications

[Edward3c]

After assessing the PADSI AOW and SSI options I chose to do SSI Deep Diver & Nitrox. This gave me the quickest route to 40m (130 ft) dives and extended time shallower dives.

I found the SSI courses really enjoyable. Bearing in mind that I have been diving for less than a year and only took my OW 4 months ago I am well pleased. If 5 months ago, just before my OW anybody had suggested that before the end of the year I would go inside wrecks at 30 + m I would have said “no way, not ever, just the though of it scared me, but now I am really glad I have done it.

I will not bother discussing the nitrox course because I assume most are familiar with it.

The deep dive course focussed on buoyancy, gas consumption management, ascent and decent rate control and narcosis effects.

The instructor was a very accomplished diver. He could hover in mid water without reference to within a few inches or hover just of the bottom without touching it whilst doing tasks. He had a very compact well tucked in twin tank, wing and backplate set up, the value of which I came to appreciate during the dives. I was on 12L tank of nitrox 32. I did 4 dives with him for the qualification and 2 after. All the dives were from a boat, wreck dives at just over 29 to 32m.

Visibility was not good, we were on torches from as little as 15m at times and down by the side of the wrecks it could be down to 2m with a torch. Inside the wrecks sometimes when only 1 to 1.5 m apart unless he shone his torch at me I could not even tell where he was. Just to add to the fun there was a reasonable current at the surface, potentially aggressive triggerfish and scorpion fish around and in the wrecks which were covered in sharp shellfish and had jagged metal edges.

We swam very close to the seabed along wrecks where the inclined hulls were above us, this was to practice buoyancy in an overhead environment. We would then go into the wrecks and work our way through compartments, along passages, through holes, hatches, stairways etc. I could only just fit through some of the holes, they were narrower than me and even with my shoulders drawn in I was rubbing both sides, at the same time I had only a few inches under me and my tank nearly scraping. I bumped and cut my head several times. I had to get my breathing / buoyancy spot on to align with the holes so I could just drift through. One of the wrecks was inclined at about 45 degrees and had hatches of the sort you have to step over the bottom, duck your head and turn sideways to get through even when the ship is at its normal position on the surface. Incline these hatches at 45 degrees, reduce visibility and they are a tricky to get through. I had visions of knocking my primary reg off and flying round like a deflating balloon but it never happened. Even after six dives I had never even scratched my reg but had bumped the tank several times and put a number of scratches in the face of my new dive computer. There were other places where we went into a room or shaft and then used slight positive buoyancy by inhaling to rise through them instead of finning which could stir up silt. As our gas ran down we moved higher up the wreck swimming between and under obstructions on the deck. The aim being to move gently and accurately.

At one stage I thought I had been bitten / injected by something poisonous. I felt a sudden pain in my middle finger and looking at it there was what looked like black smoke tinged with green pouring from it. I could see this part of my finger was black inside and thinking it was poison I squeezed it until the blackness disappeared. When I released the pressure the black and green smoke started again. I then realised the black and green smoke was blood coming from a large flap of skin. This would be at about 24m so it brought home to me what colour distortion can occur at that depth.

From the way you describe the dives you didn’t have a good instructor, but a show-off. To be entering enclosed spaces without lines and other redundant equipment is foolhardy, at best. But in your case, it appears irresponsible as it has left you with the impression these type of dives can be done without the proper training, preparation or equipment.

On Nitrox 32 you were near the MOD for that mix. I don’t like riding the line. At 32m the extra time isn’t much use as the gas in a 12Lt is your limiting factor; either that or you incurred mandatory deco without the, again, training and equipment.

Malta is one place in the world I wouldn’t deviate from training standards because of their ‘stringent’ laws on recreational diving.

 

[tursiops]

I will not bother discussing the nitrox course because I assume most are familiar with it.

After reading your description of the Deep course, which was apparently really an advanced wreck course, please tell us about the Nitrox course. It may not have been what we are familiar with.

The deep dive course focussed on buoyancy, gas consumption management, ascent and decent rate control and narcosis effects.

This is good.

The instructor was a very accomplished diver. He could hover in mid water without reference to within a few inches or hover just of the bottom without touching it whilst doing tasks. He had a very compact well tucked in twin tank, wing and backplate set up, the value of which I came to appreciate during the dives. I was on 12L tank of nitrox 32. I did 4 dives with him for the qualification and 2 after. All the dives were from a boat, wreck dives at just over 29 to 32m.

Good, but being an accomplished diver is not the same thing as being an accomplished instructor.

Visibility was not good, we were on torches from as little as 15m at times and down by the side of the wrecks it could be down to 2m with a torch. Inside the wrecks sometimes when only 1 to 1.5 m apart unless he shone his torch at me I could not even tell where he was. Just to add to the fun there was a reasonable current at the surface, potentially aggressive triggerfish and scorpion fish around and in the wrecks which were covered in sharp shellfish and had jagged metal edges.

Not a good environment for a Deep course, and violates the standards for ohter agencies, so I assume violates the standards for SSI.

We swam very close to the seabed along wrecks where the inclined hulls were above us, this was to practice buoyancy in an overhead environment.

Violates standards.

We would then go into the wrecks and work our way through compartments, along passages, through holes, hatches, stairways etc.

Violates standards.

I could only just fit through some of the holes, they were narrower than me and even with my shoulders drawn in I was rubbing both sides, at the same time I had only a few inches under me and my tank nearly scraping. I bumped and cut my head several times. I had to get my breathing / buoyancy spot on to align with the holes so I could just drift through. One of the wrecks was inclined at about 45 degrees and had hatches of the sort you have to step over the bottom, duck your head and turn sideways to get through even when the ship is at its normal position on the surface. Incline these hatches at 45 degrees, reduce visibility and they are a tricky to get through. I had visions of knocking my primary reg off and flying round like a deflating balloon but it never happened. Even after six dives I had never even scratched my reg but had bumped the tank several times and put a number of scratches in the face of my new dive computer. There were other places where we went into a room or shaft and then used slight positive buoyancy by inhaling to rise through them instead of finning which could stir up silt. As our gas ran down we moved higher up the wreck swimming between and under obstructions on the deck. The aim being to move gently and accurately.

This is the content of an Advanced Wreck class, not a first Deep class.

At one stage I thought I had been bitten / injected by something poisonous. I felt a sudden pain in my middle finger and looking at it there was what looked like black smoke tinged with green pouring from it. I could see this part of my finger was black inside and thinking it was poison I squeezed it until the blackness disappeared. When I released the pressure the black and green smoke started again. I then realised the black and green smoke was blood coming from a large flap of skin. This would be at about 24m so it brought home to me what colour distortion can occur at that depth.

Seeing the effects of color changes at depth is the ONLY thing you have mentioned that should have been in this class.

You got ripped off, put in danger, taught poorly, and seem happy with it. Jeez.

P.S. As an Advanced Wreck class, it was also not to standards.....you did not meet the prereqs, no redundant gas supply, no guidelines laid for penetration. Total cluster.

 

[60plus]

To those who think my actions were complete wrecklessness, I can assure you they were not. I had been in discussion with the dive centre (which I have been on boats with and known for several years before I started diving) for over a month before I did the dives. I had read up quite a lot on nitrox, deepdiving, computers, tables, wreck penetration etc before I went. The SSI deep dive is normally done in 3 dives. In order to include a bit more, the wrecks (which I was really keen to do) and my lack of experience it was agreed to do it in 4. I went to the dive centre 2 days before the dives and picked up manuals to study. Before the first dive I did a substantial interview and questioning with the person who was to be my instructor. In addition to this each dive (for all the divers on the boat) was preceded with a 20 plus minute briefing, including videos and cut away diagrams of the wrecks. Everyone was warned of hazards including a reminder of the MOD for nitrox 32 at PO2 1.4 because some parts of the site exceed this. The only hazard we were not warned about were the scorpion fish, myself and at least one other diver came very close to putting a hand on them. On the boat were the skipper and 3 local instructors all of who have done hundreds of dives on the wrecks. I did all my dives with the same instructor, the first 4 on a 1 to 1 basis, and dives 5 and 6 with a buddy as well. The buddy although supposedly an experienced diver got it wrong on both dives and in my opinion was barely fit in a paddling pool. The other 2 instructors were guides for the 8 other divers on the boat. These other divers were all instructors although now quite old and pretty well retired from instructing. They were not interested in going really deep, mainly photography and fish spotting on the decks and shallower part of the wrecks, although some of them did have a look in some of the wrecks.
My instructor carried a line and if he or I felt necessary it would have been used. His twin tank was set up with 1st stage regs on both tanks so it could be used as a redundant air supply. On the dives he checked I was OK frequently and had made it clear that I could call the dive or not enter a passage at any time if I did not feel like it. I was checked for narcosis and colour perception by having to do reading, writing and a puzzle whilst hovering at 31.5m.
The wrecks had been prepped for safer diving with some extra holes cut in them. We were probably never more than 15m, certainly less than 20m from an exit hole,and mostly less even though they were not always visible or in the same compartment.
The dives were intended to be challenging and put me under a bit of stress so that I would learn the effects of stress on my breathing and and air consumption.
I certainly did not feel my instructor was showing off, he was a very good diver who guided me through a wonderful experience.
The other groups (who were themselves instructors) commented on the high quality of the diving ability of their guides.
I recognize that diving does carry risks, especially at 90+ feet in overhead or no direct access to the surface environments. Even some of the experienced divers had trouble, one had ear trouble and had to go to hospital, another had something (console?) dangle into a crack and then had to back up about 4 meters to get it out, the third dislodged their mask, got bits of silt / plankton and possibly the edge of the mask in their eyes and then could not clear properly or see.
Since I started diving we (my wife and I) tend to notice diving accidents and diving deaths on the news or internet and some of these are not far from where we live. Despite the high safety standards BASC try to instill, these accidents do occur in and around the UK. By comparison the foreign dive ops I use, despite doing things some of the more safety conscious diving community may regard as excessively risky do have excellent safety records.

 

[tursiops]

To those who think my actions were complete wrecklessness, I can assure you they were not. I had been in discussion with the dive centre (which I have been on boats with and known for several years before I started diving) for over a month before I did the dives. I had read up quite a lot on nitrox, deepdiving, computers, tables, wreck penetration etc before I went. The SSI deep dive is normally done in 3 dives. In order to include a bit more, the wrecks (which I was really keen to do) and my lack of experience it was agreed to do it in 4. I went to the dive centre 2 days before the dives and picked up manuals to study. Before the first dive I did a substantial interview and questioning with the person who was to be my instructor. In addition to this each dive (for all the divers on the boat) was preceded with a 20 plus minute briefing, including videos and cut away diagrams of the wrecks. Everyone was warned of hazards including a reminder of the MOD for nitrox 32 at PO2 1.4 because some parts of the site exceed this. The only hazard we were not warned about were the scorpion fish, myself and at least one other diver came very close to putting a hand on them. On the boat were the skipper and 3 local instructors all of who have done hundreds of dives on the wrecks. I did all my dives with the same instructor, the first 4 on a 1 to 1 basis, and dives 5 and 6 with a buddy as well. The buddy although supposedly an experienced diver got it wrong on both dives and in my opinion was barely fit in a paddling pool. The other 2 instructors were guides for the 8 other divers on the boat. These other divers were all instructors although now quite old and pretty well retired from instructing. They were not interested in going really deep, mainly photography and fish spotting on the decks and shallower part of the wrecks, although some of them did have a look in some of the wrecks.
My instructor carried a line and if he or I felt necessary it would have been used. His twin tank was set up with 1st stage regs on both tanks so it could be used as a redundant air supply. On the dives he checked I was OK frequently and had made it clear that I could call the dive or not enter a passage at any time if I did not feel like it. I was checked for narcosis and colour perception by having to do reading, writing and a puzzle whilst hovering at 31.5m.
The wrecks had been prepped for safer diving with some extra holes cut in them. We were probably never more than 15m, certainly less than 20m from an exit hole,and mostly less even though they were not always visible or in the same compartment.
The dives were intended to be challenging and put me under a bit of stress so that I would learn the effects of stress on my breathing and and air consumption.
I certainly did not feel my instructor was showing off, he was a very good diver who guided me through a wonderful experience.
The other groups (who were themselves instructors) commented on the high quality of the diving ability of their guides.
I recognize that diving does carry risks, especially at 90+ feet in overhead or no direct access to the surface environments. Even some of the experienced divers had trouble, one had ear trouble and had to go to hospital, another had something (console?) dangle into a crack and then had to back up about 4 meters to get it out, the third dislodged their mask, got bits of silt / plankton and possibly the edge of the mask in their eyes and then could not clear properly or see.
Since I started diving we (my wife and I) tend to notice diving accidents and diving deaths on the news or internet and some of these are not far from where we live. Despite the high safety standards BASC try to instill, these accidents do occur in and around the UK. By comparison the foreign dive ops I use, despite doing things some of the more safety conscious diving community may regard as excessively risky do have excellent safety records.

It really doesn"t matter how good you are or how good the instructor is or how much fun you had, the training was not being done to standards. That is the issue. IF there had been a problem, the instructor and his dive shop would have been in deep doodoo. The fact there was no problem does not mean it was OK. You were lucky, he was lucky. If that's the way you want to dive, it's your life. Literally.

 

[ChuckP]

You took a portion of an advanced wreck diving class, didn't get any credit for it but you lived. I personally wouldn't tempt fate. That whole training scenario as described is absurd.

 

[Edward3c]

To those who think my actions were complete wrecklessness, I can assure you they were not. I had been in discussion with the dive centre (which I have been on boats with and known for several years before I started diving) for over a month before I did the dives. I had read up quite a lot on nitrox, deepdiving, computers, tables, wreck penetration etc before I went. The SSI deep dive is normally done in 3 dives. In order to include a bit more, the wrecks (which I was really keen to do) and my lack of experience it was agreed to do it in 4. I went to the dive centre 2 days before the dives and picked up manuals to study. Before the first dive I did a substantial interview and questioning with the person who was to be my instructor. In addition to this each dive (for all the divers on the boat) was preceded with a 20 plus minute briefing, including videos and cut away diagrams of the wrecks. Everyone was warned of hazards including a reminder of the MOD for nitrox 32 at PO2 1.4 because some parts of the site exceed this. The only hazard we were not warned about were the scorpion fish, myself and at least one other diver came very close to putting a hand on them. On the boat were the skipper and 3 local instructors all of who have done hundreds of dives on the wrecks. I did all my dives with the same instructor, the first 4 on a 1 to 1 basis, and dives 5 and 6 with a buddy as well. The buddy although supposedly an experienced diver got it wrong on both dives and in my opinion was barely fit in a paddling pool. The other 2 instructors were guides for the 8 other divers on the boat. These other divers were all instructors although now quite old and pretty well retired from instructing. They were not interested in going really deep, mainly photography and fish spotting on the decks and shallower part of the wrecks, although some of them did have a look in some of the wrecks.
My instructor carried a line and if he or I felt necessary it would have been used. His twin tank was set up with 1st stage regs on both tanks so it could be used as a redundant air supply. On the dives he checked I was OK frequently and had made it clear that I could call the dive or not enter a passage at any time if I did not feel like it. I was checked for narcosis and colour perception by having to do reading, writing and a puzzle whilst hovering at 31.5m.
The wrecks had been prepped for safer diving with some extra holes cut in them. We were probably never more than 15m, certainly less than 20m from an exit hole,and mostly less even though they were not always visible or in the same compartment.
The dives were intended to be challenging and put me under a bit of stress so that I would learn the effects of stress on my breathing and and air consumption.
I certainly did not feel my instructor was showing off, he was a very good diver who guided me through a wonderful experience.
The other groups (who were themselves instructors) commented on the high quality of the diving ability of their guides.
I recognize that diving does carry risks, especially at 90+ feet in overhead or no direct access to the surface environments. Even some of the experienced divers had trouble, one had ear trouble and had to go to hospital, another had something (console?) dangle into a crack and then had to back up about 4 meters to get it out, the third dislodged their mask, got bits of silt / plankton and possibly the edge of the mask in their eyes and then could not clear properly or see.
Since I started diving we (my wife and I) tend to notice diving accidents and diving deaths on the news or internet and some of these are not far from where we live. Despite the high safety standards BASC try to instill, these accidents do occur in and around the UK. By comparison the foreign dive ops I use, despite doing things some of the more safety conscious diving community may regard as excessively risky do have excellent safety records.

The feedback you’ve received has not been a criticism of you, but of the instructor who put you in a situation where you haven’t done the training. The fact nothing untoward happened, unfortunately, is leading you to think it is acceptable practise to take the inexperienced and untrained on these type of dives.

Don’t be misled by the BSAC incident reports, they include all incidents reported in the U.K. but only BSAC divers in overseas locations. As for Malta, there have been a few prosecutions of instructors who haven’t followed the regulations.

 

[Efka76]

I read this thread and i am a bit shocked. Inexperienced diver was put to significant risk. Please read sylabus of Deep diver and see what are requirements. To dive deep in overhead environment, full of many hazards and with 12 l tank seems pretty stupid. You should be happy that tiu are still alive. Also, it was funny to read about green smoke next time when you go to wreck put gloves on, this is one of the main rules. Wrecks are rusty and even small touch to wreck can result in deep cut into your skin or flesh. Also, there is a big possibility to get some bacteria from such cut as well.

 

[Efka76]

Also, if you did puzzle solving at 30 m depth you wasted your effort nitrogen narcosis usually start at 40 m depth. Besides, this is the first time in my life i hear that you did deep dive with nitrox in order to experience nitrogen narcosis )) if you would read nitrox manual carefully you would understand that when you are reching MOD you have different issue with is called CNS. On nitrox there is a risk of oxygen poisoning which is different thing from gas narcosis. You got combination of wreck, nitrox and deep diving which is definitely violation of standards.

 

[Efka76]

A dive centre I will be diving with shortly has suggested that I might find the SSI deep diver a better qualification than PADI AOW. An advantage I can see is that SSI deep qualifies to 40m whereas AOW is 30m. I am fairly familiar with AOW but not at all with SSI deep diver. Anyone any info or comment on the SSI qualification?

You are comparing SSI specialty with PADI AOW course. According to requirements, PADI AOW includes 1 Deep dive. After completing PADI AOW you are certified to dive up to 30 m depth. If you take PADI Deep specialty, you will need 3 additional dives + theory and will be certifified to dive up to 40 m depth.

 

[KenGordon]

To those who think my actions were complete wrecklessness, I can assure you they were not. I had been in discussion with the dive centre (which I have been on boats with and known for several years before I started diving) for over a month before I did the dives. I had read up quite a lot on nitrox, deepdiving, computers, tables, wreck penetration etc before I went. The SSI deep dive is normally done in 3 dives. In order to include a bit more, the wrecks (which I was really keen to do) and my lack of experience it was agreed to do it in 4. I went to the dive centre 2 days before the dives and picked up manuals to study. Before the first dive I did a substantial interview and questioning with the person who was to be my instructor. In addition to this each dive (for all the divers on the boat) was preceded with a 20 plus minute briefing, including videos and cut away diagrams of the wrecks. Everyone was warned of hazards including a reminder of the MOD for nitrox 32 at PO2 1.4 because some parts of the site exceed this. The only hazard we were not warned about were the scorpion fish, myself and at least one other diver came very close to putting a hand on them. On the boat were the skipper and 3 local instructors all of who have done hundreds of dives on the wrecks. I did all my dives with the same instructor, the first 4 on a 1 to 1 basis, and dives 5 and 6 with a buddy as well. The buddy although supposedly an experienced diver got it wrong on both dives and in my opinion was barely fit in a paddling pool. The other 2 instructors were guides for the 8 other divers on the boat. These other divers were all instructors although now quite old and pretty well retired from instructing. They were not interested in going really deep, mainly photography and fish spotting on the decks and shallower part of the wrecks, although some of them did have a look in some of the wrecks.
My instructor carried a line and if he or I felt necessary it would have been used. His twin tank was set up with 1st stage regs on both tanks so it could be used as a redundant air supply. On the dives he checked I was OK frequently and had made it clear that I could call the dive or not enter a passage at any time if I did not feel like it. I was checked for narcosis and colour perception by having to do reading, writing and a puzzle whilst hovering at 31.5m.
The wrecks had been prepped for safer diving with some extra holes cut in them. We were probably never more than 15m, certainly less than 20m from an exit hole,and mostly less even though they were not always visible or in the same compartment.
The dives were intended to be challenging and put me under a bit of stress so that I would learn the effects of stress on my breathing and and air consumption.
I certainly did not feel my instructor was showing off, he was a very good diver who guided me through a wonderful experience.
The other groups (who were themselves instructors) commented on the high quality of the diving ability of their guides.
I recognize that diving does carry risks, especially at 90+ feet in overhead or no direct access to the surface environments. Even some of the experienced divers had trouble, one had ear trouble and had to go to hospital, another had something (console?) dangle into a crack and then had to back up about 4 meters to get it out, the third dislodged their mask, got bits of silt / plankton and possibly the edge of the mask in their eyes and then could not clear properly or see.
Since I started diving we (my wife and I) tend to notice diving accidents and diving deaths on the news or internet and some of these are not far from where we live. Despite the high safety standards BASC try to instill, these accidents do occur in and around the UK. By comparison the foreign dive ops I use, despite doing things some of the more safety conscious diving community may regard as excessively risky do have excellent safety records.

Tell us the sites and people can evaluate the position. It may be that from you point of view it was as you reported, but from an objective look at the wrecks you were ok. Certainly some of the criticism as ‘against standards’ above is rubbish.