I don’t know about you personally, but where I live 90% of “professional” dive instructors are not really “professional” at all. There are some choices in the meaning. Professional like a doctor, dentist, lawyer or teacher? Years of study and hard work? Mostly no. Professional like a nicely laid out document or presentation? Professional like a formal place of work, things done properly and respectfully? I think the only one that might apply is doing a job most people do as a hobby, as in “professional footballer”, or maybe like “golf professional”. That kind of assumes earning a living, not cheap kit and free fills as payment.
PADI - Concerns about students skills.
- Thread starter DiverDaniel2485
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I don’t know about you personally, but where I live 90% of “professional” dive instructors are not really “professional” at all. There are some choices in the meaning. Professional like a doctor, dentist, lawyer or teacher? Years of study and hard work? Mostly no. Professional like a nicely laid out document or presentation? Professional like a formal place of work, things done properly and respectfully? I think the only one that might apply is doing a job most people do as a hobby, as in “professional footballer”, or maybe like “golf professional”. That kind of assumes earning a living, not cheap kit and free fills as payment.
Jackie Treehorn
Contributor
It's in your lane when they're paying you to be there.... after that... you're just another diver... and out of your lane.
It was quoted because calling one self a "professional" doesn't make them that. And certifications, professional or otherwise, does not make them competent. Which I think is what you're trying to say, but more time in the original post was spent on the newly minted OW diver. Who knows how many personal hurdles they had to overcome to get there. And OP said they displayed skills to a satisfactory standard.
Perhaps more focus should be on the instructor's own certification vs. the divers achievement.
As I said before.... police yourself and your own profession.
No help in this case, but another perspective.
Every (normal) year, the schools here have a student activity week, thus we have a week where we're teaching groups of kids en mass
For OW generally the kids are 11-12 years and up (our limit) so depending on ratios you generally have 4 students per instructor for the week.
Clearing OW in 5 days can still be a challenge (for many different reasons)
However it becomes clear at the end of the CW who has a chance of completing OW, or some kids can't get past CW3 because they've had issues or slow to pick it up. as students fall behind the schedule - we do have "make up groups" so it's not down to the capabilities of individual instructors
By the OW days, some will continue through the OW dives, some will only take the Scuba diver cert, a few others will just get DSD experiences (everyone goes home with a cert of some point)
Those who only get SD maybe because they need more time, or have had ear issues etc, get to come back at no extra cost to upgrade to OW. We realise especially at young age that patience is required for them to get over their personal fear (adults too)
Students, though if they don't meet the criteria don't get the card
When it comes to adults, I've stopped some Con Ed courses and told the student they need to work on basics before we go further (wreck and deep).
For OW I've (sensitivity) benched a student so they're not holding the others back and then come back to them and 1 on 1 slowly got them over their hurdles
I've also had adults throw epic melt downs when told we need to re do skills, or dives - often with the I have to finish by XX date/ time. Some (not all) feel entitled that they will get the cert in 4 days regardless. To them it's not a course just proof of attendance. It takes a strong mature instructor to be able to cooly deal with these
On a personal note, I would have been my own personal nightmare as an OW student. I really was a whining crappy student, full of personal fears and lacking of confidence and **** skills too. It took a patient instructor to coach me thorough - and while I completed OW in 4 days (on vacation) I really wasn't ready, but he knew that, he also knew I was divign with them for the remaining 10 days.
He was my "guide" for 3 more days, adjusting teaching and helping before he was confident that I was okay to go with a bigger group. He was smart. He knew that not having the self induced pressure of a course would help me - and it did.
For difficult divers who clearly need help I'll freely give it - I'm more than happy to be their buddy and "mentor" then over subsequent dives What my OW instructor did for me, and the way he did it, proved to be a lesson I didn't even think I'd use in the future - and then I became an instructor and it all made sense.
However there is an unfortunate number who are convinced that their abilities are far better than they actually are, and consider it an insult to be told otherwise (there's a few of those on SB too) and they're beyond help until they change their attitude
Every (normal) year, the schools here have a student activity week, thus we have a week where we're teaching groups of kids en mass
For OW generally the kids are 11-12 years and up (our limit) so depending on ratios you generally have 4 students per instructor for the week.
Clearing OW in 5 days can still be a challenge (for many different reasons)
However it becomes clear at the end of the CW who has a chance of completing OW, or some kids can't get past CW3 because they've had issues or slow to pick it up. as students fall behind the schedule - we do have "make up groups" so it's not down to the capabilities of individual instructors
By the OW days, some will continue through the OW dives, some will only take the Scuba diver cert, a few others will just get DSD experiences (everyone goes home with a cert of some point)
Those who only get SD maybe because they need more time, or have had ear issues etc, get to come back at no extra cost to upgrade to OW. We realise especially at young age that patience is required for them to get over their personal fear (adults too)
Students, though if they don't meet the criteria don't get the card
When it comes to adults, I've stopped some Con Ed courses and told the student they need to work on basics before we go further (wreck and deep).
For OW I've (sensitivity) benched a student so they're not holding the others back and then come back to them and 1 on 1 slowly got them over their hurdles
I've also had adults throw epic melt downs when told we need to re do skills, or dives - often with the I have to finish by XX date/ time. Some (not all) feel entitled that they will get the cert in 4 days regardless. To them it's not a course just proof of attendance. It takes a strong mature instructor to be able to cooly deal with these
On a personal note, I would have been my own personal nightmare as an OW student. I really was a whining crappy student, full of personal fears and lacking of confidence and **** skills too. It took a patient instructor to coach me thorough - and while I completed OW in 4 days (on vacation) I really wasn't ready, but he knew that, he also knew I was divign with them for the remaining 10 days.
He was my "guide" for 3 more days, adjusting teaching and helping before he was confident that I was okay to go with a bigger group. He was smart. He knew that not having the self induced pressure of a course would help me - and it did.
For difficult divers who clearly need help I'll freely give it - I'm more than happy to be their buddy and "mentor" then over subsequent dives What my OW instructor did for me, and the way he did it, proved to be a lesson I didn't even think I'd use in the future - and then I became an instructor and it all made sense.
However there is an unfortunate number who are convinced that their abilities are far better than they actually are, and consider it an insult to be told otherwise (there's a few of those on SB too) and they're beyond help until they change their attitude
It is great that you are able to mentor new students who need it even after completing the OW cert. I also appreciate you being able to reflect your own experiences and put yourself into new students shoes. This is very important and makes you a lot better instructor. I think the main issue that OP had was that the student was not “instructable” . She was ignoring safety advices and this “false”- confidence is what I think the most concerning. This problem is a difficult one to fix.
You should call padi training
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
I have to ask... was this a traditional kneel in the pool class? It would seem to me from this sentence that the diver was never taught control. When a student or diver is out of control, they are always in a prepanic and it doesn't take much for them to devolve into actual panic. It also results in perceptual narrowing, where their focus is more on not dying than on any additional information anyone might give them. Of course they won't listen to your directions. They can't. My question is what are they doing out of the pool?
Quite often, divers who learned their skills while kneeling, don't have enough time being neutral in the pool to be neutral in OW. What is easy for a few can be quite daunting to many and the idea that they will figure it out in a hundred dives or so does a disservice to the student. Give the student the physics and the skills to be easily neutral and you've given them control while eliminating almost all of the fear. Now they can listen to additional info and advice, but not before they get in control. Those who never let their students kneel, sit, lie or stand on the bottom never seem to have this problem. Those who do start with kneeling should take extra time to reteach all skills while in the Scuba position and be sure that their students are truly in control before letting them move on from the pool.
Unfortunately, once certified by any agency, there is no recall process for their certification. There are ways to mentor these people, but unless someone is truly dangerous, I believe in dive and let dive. I rarely offer any opinion about their diving unless I'm solicited. While I think "stay in your lane" can be applied to the person giving such advice as well, I feel it has some merit. Even then, if a diver seems to be an accident waiting to happen, I will alert the captain running the dive op. That's why we pay them the big bucks.
I've had this only once (Thankfully) I was able to bump it to my CD who was hugely more experienced as an Instructor, who took the candidate for a dive, and then stopped it right there.
However - the said student was able to re start, and did successfully complete OW, it required an "Attitude adjustment" but also some good sensitive "counselling" There is always a particular issue that causes this attitude and generally there is away around it.
We as instructors must also realise that sometimes we don't "bond" with students, and it the instructor relationship that is the cause of the issues, which can be solved by an instructor change together with a patient discussion with the student to try to get to the real source of the issue.
Of course some centres can't be bothers, take the money, issue the cert and the diver becomes someone else's problem.
In this case it would be useful to hear the divers perspective too as without making accusations - the OP wrote that the diver had issues under the control of an experienced diver (DMT) I'm assuming is the OP who quotes less than 100 dives. Again not accusing, but an insensitive intervention by someone can exacerbate the issue. From Personal experience some DM Candidates feel that suddenly being at that level has magically increased their competence when it hasn't. Dealing with diver issues underwater is a skill - its easy to make things worse
OP
DiverDaniel2485
Registered
I agree. I have about 80 dives with PADI, about 2 years as a commercial diver medic (and that is a different industry. In that industry professionalism and good conduct is expected from Instructors, Students, Divers and Team Leaders, I am slowly coming around to the recreational aspect of diving but ignoring any safety advice, I will never view you as a diver. You are a liability and a wrongful death lawsuit filed by your family when you inevitably kill yourself through stupidity waiting to happen.
I have noticed there is a LOT of leeway with PADI, but I thought this case in particular (out of all the open water courses I've helped out on so far, I have never had a student backchat an instructor or ignore important safety advice) was notable and I personally don't feel this student should have been certified.
Certainly, an interesting description. And, I appreciate the fact that we are reading a description of this student from ONE perspective, and that there may be, and probably are, alternate perspectives held by other individuals involved in the situation (including the Instructor who certified the diver). Nonetheless, taking your description at face value:
I am not altogether clear regarding what you mean by 'she did demonstrate the skills required to a satisfactory standard'. As one example, a Performance Requirement for all four Open Water dives in the PADI Open Water Diver course is 'Put on and adjust equipment – using proper lifting techniques.' A student who cannot put their own fins on simply does not meet this standard. The issue of a making a 'safe' deep water entry is a bit more complicated, as there is not a specific Performance Requirement in the Open Water dives regarding 'style'.
Some questions come to mind, that influence my understanding of the situation.DiverDaniel2485:
1. Were YOU the 'experienced diver' whose advice this student ignored?
What was YOUR specific role in the course, in which this student participated, and through which she was certified? Were you working as a Certified Assistant (i.e. are you a renewed and insured Divemaster or Assistant Instructor) in the course?DiverDaniel2485:
2. What was the specific safety advice that was offered, and apparently ignored?
Ignoring safety advice is certainly a red flag. It would be helpful to know inn what context this advice was offered - i.e. were you part of the Instructional staff? Were you a non-involved independent observer?DiverDaniel2485:
3. Standards, procedures, and 'protocols' exist.
As several have pointed out, certification as a PADI Scuba Diver would represent an intermediate approach to certification for this diver.DiverDaniel2485:
4. There has been discussion in this thread, regarding the latitude afforded a PADI Instructor in certifying divers. One aspect of that latitude is that an Instructor may decline to issue certification IF s/he - in their PROFESSIONAL judgement, believes that the diver is not qualified on the basis not only of skills but also attitude. As one example (with which I have personal familiarity): last summer, I declined to certify an OW student, who had nominally met the Performance Requirements of the Open Water Diver course, in terms of in-water skills. Now, I had a convenient 'out' - he failed the final written examination, twice. I told the shop owner that I did not believe the student's attitude, mental focus, and willingness to do what was asked of him during training provided sufficient grounds for me to believe that he would be a safe, responsible diver. I said that even if he managed to pass the written examination after another try, I would be unwilling to have my name on his certification card. The shop owner discussed the situation with the student's mother (who, I believe, was more interested in the student taking the course, than the student himself was), arranged for the student to return to the shop / quarry on a subsequent weekend for individual instruction, and had another shop instructor work with him, and ultimately certify him. I exercised my best professional judgement, the other Instructor exercised his. We (apparently, since he certified the diver) saw the world through different eyes. I don't criticize the Instructor for certifying him, I was simply unwilling to do so myself.
Perhaps, a bit more detail about your experience - we don't need to know information that would somehow identify the diver - would be useful, if we are attempting to 'impart wisdom'.
I get at least one student every year who thinks they should have their lessons signed-off just because they turn up. Normal it comes from individuals who originally learned at a school, but occasionally from a club trained diver. The last one was a PADI DM who insisted I sign off the 20m Controlled Buoyant Lift, BSAC Advanced Diver lesson, even though they hadn’t got in the water.
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