PADI tables finally going away?

[gcbryan]

Did they teach how to use a PDC in your OW class?

If they didn't I wonder how he could have possibly figured it out.

 

[Puffer Fish]

Funny, because as a large format user.. we always looked down our nose at everyone using those toy 35mm camera's...I sort of missed how 35mm because "real" photography. I thought it was a known fact that real photographs were taken with a 4 x 5 (or better yet, an 8 x10.)

Remember when digital photography hit our sport? The old school (Nikonos) guys told us that it was not "real" photography, whatever that means. They also were horrified about cameras and strobes misfiring, photographers losing their passion, photographers losing their feel for the medium and the list could go on. What it DID do was to put almost every professional underwater photographer out of a job or business. The learning curve for producing outstanding underwater digital photography was cut to just a small fraction of that needed for film. Dark rooms gave way to learning digital manipulation on a Mac. Forums became the de facto method for learning a lot of these techniques. It was a true revolution in how we took underwater pictures.

 

[Slonda828]

Did they teach how to use a PDC in your OW class?

If you mean a dive computer (I don't even know what the hell a PDC is) yes. I was also taught tables. I didn't buy a computer until I had about 25 dives or so, as I couldn't afford one. I still use my tables for the first dive of a series in parallel with my computer, so I stay current on how to use them. If someone would have told me that I HAD to have a dive computer to start OW, on top of all the other crap I had to buy, I think I would have told them that they were #1, and I'm not talking about with my index finger.

Personal dive computer? Is that what it is? Is there any other kind? Are there group dive computers?

 

[HowardE]

Remember when digital photography hit our sport? The old school (Nikonos) guys told us that it was not "real" photography, whatever that means. They also were horrified about cameras and strobes misfiring, photographers losing their passion, photographers losing their feel for the medium and the list could go on. What it DID do was to put almost every professional underwater photographer out of a job or business. The learning curve for producing outstanding underwater digital photography was cut to just a small fraction of that needed for film. Dark rooms gave way to learning digital manipulation on a Mac. Forums became the de facto method for learning a lot of these techniques. It was a true revolution in how we took underwater pictures.

While this may be true. Many of the great photographers still understand how to use film cameras. Someone who masters a Digital SLR - would be able to use film - no problem; it's just the medium.

Certainly dive computers are easier; as is digital photography. But those who understand film and how it works - probably will get better images with less photoshopping than someone with no film experience.

Did they teach how to use a PDC in your OW class?

No. They were mentioned.

 

[Atom]

Interesting thread... the more I read it... the more I agree with NetDoc.... the only thing I still disagree with is the part where NetDoc says "new divers will dive with a computer"... this might be true in Florida where after doing your OW there are many nice opportunities for diving so people might dive a lot, so the computer makes sense... around here (Canada) most people will do their OW because they want to dive on a vacation in the south.... so they don't buy most of their gear... and as far as I know, computers aren't yet standard on rentals, so knowing tables is still important if you don't want to rely on the DM to do your planning (and really... you shouldn't). But then again, it's not like NetDoc is saying he won't teach tables to somebody who wants to learn them, I just feel that if the curriculum moved to computers only some divers would be left with no option other than renting a computer (if available) on some occasions because they couldn't plan their dive with a table.

But I agree that knowing tables is different from understanding deco theory (not that I really understand deco theory). I would expect dive computers to fail because their sensor fails, not because of programming errors. If you plan your dive on table but your depth gauge craps out, you're just as screwed as if you were relying on your computer, all equipment will fail sometimes, that's why you have a buddy, and that's why you check your gauges often. I had my depth gauge fail while I was diving on tables, I knew the max depth of the site and we planned the dive for it so there was no worry, but still, on a wall dive I might have freaked out to see my depth gauge at 180ft, a quick look at my buddy's depth gauge assured me I wasn't narced at 60ft.

With all that said... last week-end I was diving with a friend.... it's his 9th dive, he's on rental gear.... so we planned the dive with his table.... (I checked the table for max BT then asked him what he thought max BT should be, my first instinct was to call the dive time after looking at the table but I figured.... he has to learn by himself... and I can be wrong... so let's make sure we both agree) so I still think they're of some use. But besides price I don't see how tables are better than computers.

This is of course all in a recreational context (no deco, ...). This is important in a recreational context, you know that anywhere in the dive where you're under the max BT you can surface slowly and you shouldn't have any problem with DCS. If you exceeed that time.... welll the table won't save you, as will the computer (they suggest an emergency deco procedure but you have to be able to follow it).

... and one last comment.... maybe that means computers should become part of the standard OW diver kit, so people wouldn't have to worry about having access to a computer or not.... just like we have adopted SPG to replace J-valves.

... and I lied.... I have one more comment.... the difference between ABS brakes and a dive computer, is that the dive computer will only beep if it disagrees (granted it can be annoying) it won't prevent you from surfacing, or staying down longer if you think that's what you should do.

 

[The Chairman]

I don't even know what the hell a PDC is

Personal Dive Computer

 

[The Chairman]

the only thing I still disagree with is the part where NetDoc says "new divers will dive with a computer".

Uh... I don't hold to that proposition. I really don't have a problem with peeps learning tables, IF THEY WANT TO. I don't have a problem with an instructor requiring their students to learn them in order to pass their class. You simply can't argue with a phobia. They are unreasonable by definition.

I do have a problem with students who are force fed tables and never taught how to properly use a computer. It's not that hard, but when Mr Murphy comes a calling, it's best to know how to address him and not have to make stuff up as you go. They should also learn how to decipher those pesky alarms and that many computers default to %50 if you don't set them up correctly.

If you want me to teach you tables in my class, I will. But you can bet the emphasis will be on learning to dive using a computer and learning to pay attention. That being said, it's good to see more agencies starting to agree with me.

 

[Atom]

Uh... I don't hold to that proposition. I really don't have a problem with peeps learning tables, IF THEY WANT TO. I don't have a problem with an instructor requiring their students to learn them in order to pass their class. You simply can't argue with a phobia. They are unreasonable by definition.

I do have a problem with students who are force fed tables and never taught how to properly use a computer. It's not that hard, but when Mr Murphy comes a calling, it's best to know how to address him and not have to make stuff up as you go. They should also learn how to decipher those pesky alarms and that many computers default to %50 if you don't set them up correctly.

If you want me to teach you tables in my class, I will. But you can bet the emphasis will be on learning to dive using a computer and learning to pay attention. That being said, it's good to see more agencies starting to agree with me.

... well...then... I suppose I agree with you ; ) ..... sorry if I misinterpreted your opinions.

 

[The Chairman]

... well...then... I suppose I agree with you ; ) ..... sorry if I misinterpreted your opinions.

Not a problem. I suspect we'll both live through the miscommunication.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

While this may be true. Many of the great photographers still understand how to use film cameras. Someone who masters a Digital SLR - would be able to use film - no problem; it's just the medium.

Certainly dive computers are easier; as is digital photography. But those who understand film and how it works - probably will get better images with less photoshopping than someone with no film experience.

I agree that knowing film makes for a better digital photographer sooner. Film or digital it is extremeily important to understand f stops and shutter speeds, how they interrelate and the effect it has on depth of field along with arcane little details like the trade offs involved with increasing ASA ratings - even in a digital camera.

But the learning curve for a photographer is much shorter now as they can get immediate feedback on things like exposure and can shoot a dozen pictures of the same subject as they are not limited to 36 exposures per dive.

And exposures with a digital are much like a print film - much more lattitude in under or over exposure to get a usable image than with slide film and slide film was usually the preferred medium for the true photography snob.

The irony here is that the opposite is true for dive tables. A student can quickly run multiple profiles, and see the end results of doing longer, shorter, deeper or shallower dives on a variety of mixes in various orders then discuss all the reasons why things are the way they are and do it all in a single afternoon. It's harder to do that with a computer, even if it has computer donwload and dive planning software capabilities. In short, dive tables make a great learning and teaching tool thgat greatly accellerates the learning process even if all the diver ever plans to do is use a computer once they get out of class.

But...the difference is qualitative. A new photogrpaher can just jump in the water and start taking pictures, or they can learn how cameras work, why f stop, depth of field and composition are important and become a better photographer in much less time. Similarly, a new diver can just jump in with a comuter and go, or they can spend an afternoon with dive tables and become a better diver and dive planner in a much shorter period of time. It just depends on how much you value quality.