Peacock Fatality Accident Analysis

[Kevin Carlisle]

Thanks. I was thinking it was more recent than that, but the way time flies that could be the one I'm remembering.

4 collapses! :shocked2:, remind me not to dive with you!

A few months ago Nick Leone was there and reported viz went to zero for an unknown reason while he was on the main line.

 

[Cave Diver]

A few months ago Nick Leone was there and reported viz went to zero for an unknown reason while he was on the main line.

That's the one I was thinking of.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

That's the one I was thinking of.

I dove it that morning and I believe Nick was teaching. I know I was kinda surprised by what he reported. Actually I think I was diving a secret river cave that morning, we passed up JB to let it clear that afternoon.

 

[rjack321]

Joking aside,

I have seen MANY cave divers not bother with a primary in certain places (like JB) because the diver looks at the area and decides there is NOTHING that can cause the vis to drop so bad he/she would need it.

Unfortunately they are WRONG, a collapse, partial collapse down system, sudden flash flood with river incursion or even a lost mask with no back up can cause HUGE issues.

There in NEVER any excuse for not having a cont guideline to open water.

Yet the guy from Seattle (me, with a 3 dives in the system) is one of the only divers saying that it just ain't right skipping a reel at JB. Even if the flow would push you out in about 4mins from the top of the chimney.

 

[karstdvr]

Thanks. I was thinking it was more recent than that, but the way time flies that could be the one I'm remembering.

4 collapses! :shocked2:, remind me not to dive with you!

I am sure there has probably been more collapses more recently at JB,this is an active system. The place people want to hold their breath is the Peanut restriction,that will be the grand daddy of collapses. When the NFSA completes the interpretive trail,and people will see how little limestone is above their head,because of the depth of the sink,you'll be surprised ;-(

 

[jeandiver]

From the conversation I just had on the phone this sum's it up perfectly. As much as I'd like to think there was some other issue to cause her to bolt I can't overlook that these were the first two jumps she'd ever taken and they were visual(hell they were also the first two jumps I ever took but with the major differences of being in a class with an instructor and running lines). John(her buddy) had completed this circuit exactly once before. It's sad but from what I can see this boils down to a case of Pat making a dive that was too far outside of her skill set and experience base. It pains me when things like this happen, but even more so when all the evidence points to them being completely avoidable.

Thanks again for the update.
Again , as Mat said , this makes things a little more understandable.

As for me personally, the 800 foot arrow on Peanut is going to be a more somber place for me now on. Just like Harry's Crack in Ginnie , the P3 side tunnel etc.

These are places of rememberance for me. And for those that know me , probably understand why.

(Everytime we lose one of our own, it makes me stop and cry...)

So at 800 ft up Peanut, I will remember.

And learn a little more. Which is ALWAYS a good thing.

Jean

P.S. And I pray for her buddy. What a terrible thing to remember.

 

[Dive-aholic]

It's been moved during the past few months. When I was there last August, the beginning of the Peanut line was further inside. When I returned in November, it had been moved so that it's literally within an armspan of the entrance ... as is the Mainline. What I was told when I asked why is that it was due to environmental concerns. Someone also told me that there's not solid agreement among those who are responsible for making such decisions that it was the right thing to do.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

The lines in the Peacock I cavern haven't been changed in several years. They both start within 2-3' of OW.

A rule is a rule, Mathew.

The current "rule" of at least one agency is the primary tie off can be in OW or a distance into the cavern where a safe exit can still be made.

I'm wondering if this behavior was ever "tested" in class (ie. what her class was like and if it was difficult enough to inspire this panicky behavior), if the class was adequate was this tendency shown and/or acknowledged, or

This behavior is not taught at the Intro level. NSS-CDS, NACD, IANTD, TDI, and PSI do not allow navigation decisions at that level. She was trained through one of those agencies.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

The more I read about this fatality, the more I think of something my instructor said to me once ... when I made one of those bad decisions that kept me from passing Full Cave the first time around ...

"Y'all were doing a Trust Me dive ... and that's how people die in caves".

We can talk about the fact that they should have used jump lines, or whatever else might have caused her to react as she did. But I think the bottom line is that she went on a Trust Me dive, and it bit her. There were just too many unknowns ... between the blind jumps and the unverified circuit ... and it wore away at her ability to stay focused on doing even the things she knew how to do that would've saved her life.

If there's any lesson to take away from this accident, I think it's simply this ... if you don't know what you're doing, and why you're doing it ... don't do it!

I don't think it was a lack of jump lines that turned this dive into a fatality ... I think it was the decision to do the jumps in the first place ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Green_Streak]

Its been implied several times that those wanting to blame a medical condition on this incident are trying to take the "it could happen to me" out of this scenario.

She just did two visual jumps, down unfamiliar cave... she didn't trust she was where she thought she should be, and she had no infrastructure in place to validate that information. Pretty cut and dry.

The changing tone of this discussion is likely because as more new information about this dive surfaces, the more and more it backs up, she wasn't in familiar territory. First time making jumps(visual or not), first time in the crossover tunnel, first time doing a circuit, no mentorship(a diver who's done it once or twice doesn't count), why ignore every bit of this? Foolishness.

From the conversation I just had on the phone this sum's it up perfectly. As much as I'd like to think there was some other issue to cause her to bolt I can't overlook that these were the first two jumps she'd ever taken and they were visual(hell they were also the first two jumps I ever took but with the major differences of being in a class with an instructor and running lines). John(her buddy) had completed this circuit exactly once before. It's sad but from what I can see this boils down to a case of Pat making a dive that was too far outside of her skill set and experience base. It pains me when things like this happen, but even more so when all the evidence points to them being completely avoidable.

 

[Superlyte27]

Hey Green:

You ever make a visual jump? You ever dive a circuit without a continous guideline? And just so we're clear... what is your current level of certification.

In law school they taught us to never ask a question in court that we didn't already know the answer to.