Planned deco on a recreational dive?

[pgetto]

"Albert Einstein is broadly credited with exclaiming 'The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results'."

Sometimes I think this is the motto for SB.

While this might be a good motto for SB, I am not sure it came from Einstein. Here is an article on "Quote Investigator" that traces the history of this aphorism to another source - Narcotics Anonymous (also seems appropriate for SB) [http://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/03/23/same/].

 

[BRT]

Your quote is NOT from the published DAN recommendation.
See https://www.diversalertnetwork.org/files/FADWkshpBook_web.pdf, where the recommendation is:
For a single no-decompression dive, a minimum preflight surface interval of 12 hours is suggested.
For multiple dives per day or multiple days of diving, a minimum preflight surface interval of 18 hours is suggested.
For dives requiring decompression stops, there is little evidence on which to base a recommendation, and a preflight surface interval substantially longer than 18 hours appears prudent.

Worse, YOU did deco dives, so quoting the NDL recommendations is disingenuous, bordering on dishonesty..

DAN seems to make it pretty clear that they only have suggestions and really don't know the answers to flying after diving.

 

[tursiops]

DAN seems to make it pretty clear that they only have suggestions and really don't know the answers to flying after diving.

Their recommendations are actually the consensus statement from the Flying After Diving Workshop. You appear to miss the fact that between no knowledge and certainty is a very large middle ground. One never reaches certainty, but as time goes on and research is done and experience is gained, we learn more and more, and can provide better and better recommendations, based on the consensus of all those working in the middle ground. Consensus statements are the way it works. For example, we are told by a consensus that the OverTheCounter maximum does for ibuprofen is 1200 mg per day, and the prescription maximum dose is 2400 mg per day. Does this mean those numbers are perfect for everybody, or you, or me? No, but what is your alternative? Try 5000 mg a day and see if your kidneys survive?

So, you can make snarky remarks about how DAN knows nothing, but what you are really saying is that you do not understand what those recommendations mean.

 

[BRT]

Their recommendations are actually the consensus statement from the Flying After Diving Workshop. You appear to miss the fact that between no knowledge and certainty is a very large middle ground. One never reaches certainty, but as time goes on and research is done and experience is gained, we learn more and more, and can provide better and better recommendations, based on the consensus of all those working in the middle ground. Consensus statements are the way it works. For example, we are told by a consensus that the OverTheCounter maximum does for ibuprofen is 1200 kg per day, and the prescription maximum dose is 2400 mg per day. Does this mean those numbers are perfect for everybody, or you, or me? No, but what is your alternative? Try 5000 mg a day and see if your kidneys survive?

So, you can make snarky remarks about how DAN knows nothing, but what you are really saying is that you do not understand what those recommendations mean.

I was not being snarky towards DAN at all. I just don't think anybody knows for sure and DAN makes that clear.

 

[admikar]

Lucky there wasn't a pressurisation failure. I don't like trusting my life to luck.

It all comes to statistics. How much pressure failures/flight?
All of this comes to how much risk YOU are willing to take? If there was a pressurization failure, how do you know you would survive, even if you followed DAN's guidelines. It could happen on 10k or 38k of feet. Not the same. Risk is not the same.
It comes to same as whether you take GF 25/70 or 30/75 for a dive, you choose a risk you're willing to take.
I'm not saying this is the right attitude to this, but, it is a personal choice.

 

[RainPilot]

It all comes to statistics. How much pressure failures/flight?
All of this comes to how much risk YOU are willing to take? If there was a pressurization failure, how do you know you would survive, even if you followed DAN's guidelines. It could happen on 10k or 38k of feet. Not the same. Risk is not the same.
It comes to same as whether you take GF 25/70 or 30/75 for a dive, you choose a risk you're willing to take.
I'm not saying this is the right attitude to this, but, it is a personal choice.

It happens more often than you think. Everyone thinks of explosive decompression like the movies, but a cabin altitude of higher than the 8k that DAN works on is actually quite frequent. I don't know that I would survive a major event, but generally most passengers survive a decompression only event. I'd rather be the guy telling everyone how scary the slide was getting out than be the gently fizzing corpse they fetch out later.

Of course it all is personal, hence my comment that "I" don't like trusting in luck. I have also never been in a car accident where a seatbelt would save my life. In terms of worldwide journeys per day, car accidents are a very small risk. I still wear my seatbelt on every trip.

Same with motorcycle helmets. Same with a lot of personal protective equipment.

There is also the question of life insurance and my family. This is a risky enough sport that I tend to be quite risk averse where it is at all possible short of not diving at all.

 

[Diver-Drex]

This has how this has progressed...
Planned deco for an untrained diver not carrying a redundant air source or without any degree of actual planning is somehow OK.
- PADI doesn't know what they are talking about.
- Tables are really conservative so you can violate the NDLs and decide for yourself how much of the built in safety factor you are willing to utilize.
- Your computer is too conservative and it's probably different than other computers, so who is to say which is right? Ignore it or better yet set the parameters to eliminate all the conservatism and then still ignore it.
- Missing a deco stop is no big deal.
- BSAC says it's OK for divers to do single tank deco dives, so all of the other organization that say otherwise should be ignored.
- And DAN doesn't know what they are talking about either.

Really?

Doesn't it just make more sense to get the training, proper equipment, plan your dives and dive your plan?

 

[lermontov]

This has how this has progressed...
Planned deco for an untrained diver not carrying a redundant air source or without any degree of actual planning is somehow OK.
- PADI doesn't know what they are talking about.
- Tables are really conservative so you can violate the NDLs and decide for yourself how much of the built in safety factor you are willing to utilize.
- Your computer is too conservative and it's probably different than other computers, so who is to say which is right? Ignore it or better yet set the parameters to eliminate all the conservatism and then still ignore it.
- Missing a deco stop is no big deal.
- BSAC says it's OK for divers to do single tank deco dives, so all of the other organization that say otherwise should be ignored.
- And DAN doesn't know what they are talking about either.

Really?

Doesn't it just make more sense to get the training, proper equipment, plan your dives and dive your plan?

given enough time it will self correct

 

[dirkadirk]

given enough time it will self correct

Is that another way of saying the Darwin Awards and natural selection will eventually sort it out?

 

[lermontov]

Is that another way of saying the Darwin Awards and natural selection will eventually sort it out?

as they drop off the long term plan is to make the fatality/diver percentages look better making it statistically a safer sport