Pony bottle & recreational diving...Need input...

[DaleC]

but then turn the valve off (leaving it pressurised). This is standard practice with additional tanks carried as stage tanks, and it's the best way to handle a pony.

Well, it's one way to handle a pony but I wouldn't say it's the best. I wouldn't say it's the worst either. I would just say it's one way.

Granted that what I said does relate more to the tech world and probably started there, but these practices developed for good reason.

In relation to stage and deco bottles. Tech divers don't use ponies so their way of relating to them may not be the most relevant.

I think this is one of the most basic questions of diving: How do I cope with a catastrophic loss of gas?
But at any rate, I'm not going to criticize someone's decision to use a pony bottle, because they may not be in a position to elect other options.

Oh now Lynne, don't let logic and common decency get in the way of a perfectly good argument

 

[tyesai]

Fair comment, Jason. I was having my doubts, but when I got to the bit about "some arm floaties" I decided that yes, "tyesai" was having a laugh at someone's expense. There's been an awful lot of that here lately. I'm quite happy to accept that I was wrong. Heavens - we might even get back to serious discussion of people's genuine dive concerns!

I wasn't mocking him at all, the other Jason summed up my own words for me far better than I could have.

JSin

 

[peterbj7]

Well, it's one way to handle a pony but I wouldn't say it's the best. I wouldn't say it's the worst either. I would just say it's one way.

So what would you say are the various ways, and which is the best?

In relation to stage and deco bottles. Tech divers don't use ponies so their way of relating to them may not be the most relevant

To an extent depends on what you call a "pony". What would your definition be?

As it's an additional tank over and above the main tank(s) on your back I thought it was a pretty similar situation. But as you picked up on it you must feel there's a significant difference....?

 

[gcbryan]

I won't speak for DaleC but a pony bottle (bailout bottle) isn't a deco bottle and it isn't a fact that turning the bottle off is "the best way". It is in your opinion which is fine.

I leave the bottle on. It's not a deco bottle that is 100% necessary on every dive. It's a bottle that is rarely necessary but when it is necessary it may not be the best procedure for the suddenly OOA diver (broken hose or whatever) to have to remember to turn the tank back on or to have to remember to keep re pressurizing the tank throughout the dive.

I check my pony bottle gauge from time to time during the dive. I don't need to turn the bottle off. For someone who is already trained to do that for their deco gas that might be the best approach should they decide to use a pony bottle. Most who are trained in deco diving don't use pony bottles however and would just use their doubles (I guess).

 

[BDSC]

My instructor and I do have a mismatch to have certain degree. I think though that I have a lot to learn from him and like him and will stay with him despite this issue.

I think you have made the right choice here! It kinda surprised me how many people were quick to say "Find another instructor." I think you have an excellent instructor who is only trying to help you become the best diver you can be.

A few years ago I was on a dive trip (Cozumel) with a guy who had just been through AOW and had like 25 to 30 dives. He actually brought along with him a pony bottle. So the first day the guy brings it to the boat and uses it both dives. Second day was the same thing. So on the morning of the third day before we head out he asked me why no one else on the boat had a pony and I told him my thoughts on using a pony and why you'll hardly ever see a person wear one in the typical clear, warm water, caribbean type diving. So the guy decided to leave it on the boat for the first dive. Did it again on the second dive. And to this day he never wears it unless he is going below 130 ft or doing certain wreck peretrations.

His reason for wearing it, according to him, was the "What if" factor. I've never been one to try and guard against the "What if" factor because it is impossible to do so and explained to him my line of thinking on it. I don't think anything I said had any big impact on his decision to not use the pony that day and not using the pony now. I think it has more to do with him becoming a more experienced diver and gaining the confidence in his skills and abilities that only experience can bring and he now sees what many people see. There is no practical need for a pony in the type of diving we were doing.

 

[DC53]

Removed post - tried to quote and reply but didn't work. May get to it later.

 

[peterbj7]

it may not be the best procedure for the suddenly OOA diver (broken hose or whatever) to have to remember to turn the tank back on or to have to remember to keep re pressurizing the tank throughout the dive

I'm NOT wanting to be confrontational, just to explore this a bit. What you are suggesting is that such a diver is likely to be highly stressed and already to have a high workload? So any extra operations beyond those immediately essential to maintain life cannot be entertained? This to me suggests a serious deficiency in training. A diver who is "on the edge" as this suggests is not a safe diver, nor is likely to be a comfortable one.

Let me draw what I think is quite a good parallel. A new driver may have problems coordinating everything involved in driving a car, but that's no justification or excuse for failing to maintain a proper visual scan including the mirror, and understanding what he needs to know from it. A driver in training is likely to find the workload almost overpowering, but with proper training gets the hang of it and by the time he's released onto an unsuspecting public has it pretty well under control. Saying in Court you didn't use your rearview mirror and (therefore) didn't know what was behind you is NO defence if you thereby caused an accident.

 

[DaleC]

I won't speak for DaleC but a pony bottle (bailout bottle) isn't a deco bottle and it isn't a fact that turning the bottle off is "the best way". It is in your opinion which is fine.

I leave the bottle on. It's not a deco bottle that is 100% necessary on every dive. It's a bottle that is rarely necessary but when it is necessary it may not be the best procedure for the suddenly OOA diver (broken hose or whatever) to have to remember to turn the tank back on or to have to remember to keep re pressurizing the tank throughout the dive.

I check my pony bottle gauge from time to time during the dive. I don't need to turn the bottle off. For someone who is already trained to do that for their deco gas that might be the best approach should they decide to use a pony bottle. Most who are trained in deco diving don't use pony bottles however and would just use their doubles (I guess).

That pretty well sums up my thoughts too. On or off doesn't really matter as much (I dive with buddies that do both) as that you understand the pros and cons of each system and are well versed in the system you choose. If you sling your pony (so you can monitor gas loss and manipulate the valves) one is not intrinsically better than the other.

I'm NOT wanting to be confrontational, just to explore this a bit. What you are suggesting is that such a diver is likely to be highly stressed and already to have a high workload? So any extra operations beyond those immediately essential to maintain life cannot be entertained? This to me suggests a serious deficiency in training. A diver who is "on the edge" as this suggests is not a safe diver, nor is likely to be a comfortable one.

A pony is intentionally used under stress conditions (OOA, catastrophic gas loss) a deco or stage bottle is not. With a stage/deco bottle one plans the gas switch and does it in a controlled fashion (usually). With a pony (used as a redundant air source) something "unexpected" has happened. For example:

- A burst disk, extruded O ring or severed LP hose is dumping 80cuft of gas in my ear.

- An OOA diver swimming up and grabbing my pony reg, trying to breath and finding it dead. Then, either trapping my hand as I try to turn the valve on or undoing the yoke valve themselves by mistake.

Everybody can dive their gear their own way. That is the beauty of scuba. For me I choose to have all regs live. I weigh the risk of losing my pony gas against the risk of breathing a dead reg in an emergency. If I do lose gas somehow I will notice it and can adjust my dive accordingly. This will be done under non stressed non lethal conditions. If I, or someone else, breathes a dead reg and needs to turn the valve on this will be done under stressed lethal conditions. I choose to take on the non lethal risk that I will deal with under non stressed conditions rather than the lethal risk I will deal with under stressed conditions.

But that's just me. I've thought it through and understand how my decision affects me.


It is often the case here on the board that people disagree on gear configuration and denigrate the others choice by claiming a lack of skills or experience. I think there can often be more than one right answer to a question and this is one of those cases. There really is no "better choice".
I think this may be disturbing to some who think that, if they have/do all the best things they will be safe. I subscribe to that to a certain extent but also realise that there is no "one" way that will protect me from the everchanging unpredictale nature of life.

 

[tedj101]

That is a matter for personal preference (as is most of this thread). My usual buddies won't dive with me at night unless I have a tank light because they want to be sure that they can account for me and I don't keep my main light on all the time - by a long shot. I also usually use a small light as my main light at night (though I carry a big one too in case I need it). By contrast, if you are someone who always has their main light on, that might not be so important.

Regards,
<TED>

I agree with the instructor regarding tank lights/chemical sticks as well. Chem sticks are bad for the environment if they are left behind, they shouldn't be necessary as in you shouldn't be behind your buddy and if you can't see them by their dive light of what use is a tank light and in many cases it's just a crutch and an annoyance to other divers...particularly flashing strobe tank lights....you don't need a light on your tank...you need one in your hand.

 

[peterbj7]

I often do night dives with just a small lamp, and that's off much of the time. But not if I'm leading a group. They need to know where I am, and I need to know where they are.

I don't use chemical light sticks for two reasons. The first is that they're hard to get here, and quite expensive. The other is that I prefer the battery-operated ones.

A lot about diving is indeed personal preference, and long may that continue! Many decisions are pretty arbitrary and it really doesn't matter which course you take. Unless you're trying to conform to someone else's arbitrary standards of course.

But others have a safety implication, and sometimes an inexperienced or untrained individual doesn't recognise the more serious aspects of these. Being able to reach your valves underwater, and knowing how to operate them, clearly has such implications. Being trained to an extent that you've experienced in simulation any emergency that is likely to occur is just plain commonsense. As I was taught very early on "in an emergency it's the poorly learned skills that are forgotten first". Combine that with the fact that most diver deaths are caused by the diver not reacting properly to changing circumstances and panicking.

There is NO substitute for well conceived and testing training, and from it comes an ability to recognise what's important and what isn't.