Pony Bottles on NJ Charters?

[Rainer]

I've done those dives. Never lost a teammate.

Again, the chance of losing a teammate (which I've never had happen) *and* simultaneously blowing a hose (which I've never had happen) isn't worth planning for. It's like asking what are you going to do when your main cylinder blows and then your pony blows. We just don't plan for two major failures.

Visibility can be a foot or less. That makes buddy separation a real possibility, even with good buddy skills, in which case you're diving solo like it or not and the redundant gas might be the only option for you when you blow a hose at 130 feet and you can't see your hand in front of your face.

 

[Mr.X]

I like having some form of bailout. I don't mind boats in NJ/NY/Conn. asking me to take one. No biggie as I do it anyway.

Needing some form of bailout for someone else has happened to me in the Atlantic, as well as sunny California. When I had bailout gas I was able to safely give it to someone else and was able to monitor with a higher degree of control and safety for both parties. As gnarly as I've seen it get in the NE - requiring divers to have some form of independent redundancy makes sense because those "what if" situations come along every once in a while.

X

 

[Rainer]

In those cases where you had to donate gas was that due to the other diver having a gear problem or a gas management problem? If the latter, what made you confident they wouldn't just run out of gas again when you gave them your bottle?

I get the impression that the reason that so many people think that recreational dives in the North East are "gnarly" is due more to lack of diver skill than the actual dive conditions...

Just about any "what if" scenario in <100' (no mandatory deco) can just as easily be handled by a solid team than by divers with newly purchased pony bottles.

I like having some form of bailout. I don't mind boats in NJ/NY/Conn. asking me to take one. No biggie as I do it anyway.

Needing some form of bailout for someone else has happened to me in the Atlantic, as well as sunny California. When I had bailout gas I was able to safely give it to someone else and was able to monitor with a higher degree of control and safety for both parties. As gnarly as I've seen it get in the NE - requiring divers to have some form of independent redundancy makes sense because those "what if" situations come along every once in a while.

X

 

[Rescue Diver68]

I have not run in to it being a "requirement" on the boat I have been on in NJ. I do understand why any NJ boat would require it given the often poor diving conditions and the fact that the term "Buddy" often means that you are diving the same wreck, not doing an elbow to elbow "Buddy" dive. I use a pony on most deep dives and I feel that it's is necessary to have a redundant air source, especially off the Jersey coast.

Waiting for RJP............

 

[Rainer]

I use a pony on most deep dives and I feel that it's is necessary to have a redundant air source, especially off the Jersey coast.

Why do you feel it's necessary? Do you feel it is necessary for you (i.e. you couldn't conduct a safe dive without it)? Or for everyone (i.e. no one could conduct a safe dive without one)?

Do you feel it's necessary because you solo dive (whether actually solo or just not in a real team)? Or because you lack the skills to conduct a gas sharing ascent with a teammate?

 

[parzdiver]

Rainer - no offense, but you seem to want to pick a fight on this issue. The people that responded to your question are offering answers to that make sense. Great redundancy generally means greater safety, although not always.

Would it be better if the divers all had better skills, both for their individual diving and for team diving? OF COURSE IT WOULD. But as I said in my first post, the dive operations can regulate equipment and redundancy, they cannot practically regulate skills. So they do what they can. Do you expect the dive operations to do checkout dives in the local quarry or require personal references? As I said, it just isn't practical to check every diver on the boat for skills. So, you make sure they have the proper level of certification and that they have a fully redundant air supply.

 

[a22shady]

Once RJP shows up I am sure he will explain. But I have to believe it has something to do with the Insurance, Safety regulations whatever. But samething as others you want to be a safe boat and by requiring the use of pony/doubles I think it makes it a safer atmosphere. maybe helps to make people even more aware.

 

[Rainer]

Really not looking for a fight (of any sort). Just trying to understand what I think is a pretty silly requirement. There could be some good reasons for such a requirement, but I'm not currently seeing any.

I'm hard-pressed seeing how requiring a pony is keeping anyone safer. Boats in other NE states don't generally have such requirements and I don't see any more accidents in those waters than in NJ. Have you seen differently?

If safety is the primary concern, what are the boats doing to ensure that divers actually know how to use this extra gear? Just carrying it means little. Are there mandatory classes that cover pony bottles? Do divers have to file gas management plans before hoping in the water (which arguably would do more to reduce dive accidents than extra bottles)?

Clearly people all over the world are doing *safe* dives in singles without redundant gas. Many of these dives are in places just as challenging as NJ. Solid team skills are certainly an asset when diving without any other redundant gas besides that carried by your teammates.

My question is specific: why is this a requirement in NJ when it isn't elsewhere? Does it follow from a law? From insurance requirements? From groupthink?

I really do believe that an over-emphasis on gear solutions can reduce the emphasis on skill-based ones.

Rainer - no offense, but you seem to want to pick a fight on this issue. The people that responded to your question are offering answers to that make sense. Great redundancy generally means greater safety, although not always.

Would it be better if the divers all had better skills, both for their individual diving and for team diving? OF COURSE IT WOULD. But as I said in my first post, the dive operations can regulate equipment and redundancy, they cannot practically regulate skills. So they do what they can. Do you expect the dive operations to do checkout dives in the local quarry or require personal references? As I said, it just isn't practical to check every diver on the boat for skills. So, you make sure they have the proper level of certification and that they have a fully redundant air supply.

 

[Rescue Diver68]

Why do you feel it's necessary? Do you feel it is necessary for you (i.e. you couldn't conduct a safe dive without it)? Or for everyone (i.e. no one could conduct a safe dive without one)?

Do you feel it's necessary because you solo dive (whether actually solo or just not in a real team)? Or because you lack the skills to conduct a gas sharing ascent with a teammate?

Yeah, I lack the skills and knowledge of safety so I take pony bottle because i just know I'm going to screw up and almost kill myself YUP! Of course.......


If you don't understand that it's a good plan to have your own redundant air source if something unplanned happens then you shouldn't be on a Jersey boat and I sure wouldn't want to buddied up with you if your back-up plan is depend on me to save you. I sure didn't bring a pony bottle so that you don't have to.

 

[Rainer]

So you don't have the desire/skills to conduct team based dives? Why you seem to take that as an insult is beyond me.

The question isn't why a bunch of guys who don't want to dive with others shouldn't take pony bottles (they probably should), the question is why competent teams can't dive together without pony bottles in NJ. My teammates are perfectly happy and capable of offering gas if needed. This is the case whether I'm in a single or doubles.

Yeah, I lack the skills and knowledge of safety so I take pony bottle because i just know I'm going to screw up and almost kill myself YUP!
If you don't understand that it's a good plan to have your own redundant air source if something unplanned happens then you shouldn't be on a Jersey boat and I sure wouldn't want to buddied up with you if your back-up plan is depend on me to save you. I sure didn't bring a pony bottle so that you don't have to.