pony bottles

[scubalifer]

Since the subject is pony bottles and their value as a redundant air source in the case of equipment failure then the only relevant skill would be the extraction of oxygen from the surrounding water if we wish to be self-sufficient. Would you care to enlighten us how we could aquire and develop this skill.
Am I to understand that through years of yoga and meditation that you have got your RMV rate down to about 0.15 or less so you have no need for large tanks or doubles. If not, why not since your philosophy is to not allow equipment to take place of training and I guess you no longer use those multiple failure point regulator things but breathe directly off the tank.

Ok, I was dragged back in kicking and screaming as you wont let me leave this thread. I guess no one is getting out of here alive anyhow.

No you have taken what I have said one post at a time, i.e. out of context. There are three thought processes going on this subject but all kind of saying the same things. There are the very newbies who lack skill and abilities who see a pony bottle as a safety net for an accident. Which, we have beat into the ground that it is a preventable situation. Then there are the veterans, whom I will clarify, that I do not claim to fall into either category. I feel pretty vetran'ish in my old set up but quite the newbie in my bp/w and doubles set up. Then the veterans trying to keep the newbies from making the same mistakes they have made all the while defending their positions to every tom, dick, and Harrietta who would like to argue the point.

And no you are right. When the dive calls for it I use proven redundancy that was built into my dive plan. There by minimizing total failure and being quite self sufficient. You sir, with all of your obvious diving experience, may have difficulty seeing this topic through the eyes of a neophyte who under extreme pressure may have difficulty exchanging one reg for another let alone turning a valve, deploying another reg.

One thing is for sure. One never knows how he or she will react in a war until the bullets are flying by your head. However, the more you are trained to react to this situation, the better your chances are at making the correct decision when that time comes. Bla, Bla, Bla

 

[fire_diver]

Ok, I was dragged back in kicking and screaming as you wont let me leave this thread.
BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH,BLAH,BLAH.

SHUT UP!!

Are you even reading the posts anymore? The OP himself/herself stated that this entire thread has had almost nothing to do with his question. And yet here you are throwing the same old crap into the same old fan again.

I guess I need to put another person on my ignore list!

FD

 

[frankc420]

 

[scubalifer]

SHUT UP!!

Are you even reading the posts anymore? The OP himself/herself stated that this entire thread has had almost nothing to do with his question. And yet here you are throwing the same old crap into the same old fan again.

I guess I need to put another person on my ignore list!

FD

Yes, are you?

Yes, please do! There are eighteen pages of the same old crap yet you seem most interested in my posts. Hmmm.

 

[O.M.O.H.]

Ok i was going to post this here but it ended up in another thread i was subscribed to. Sorrys go out to the moderators.
Here it is:

Wow… can we all just get along. Anyway this whole thing is just getting out of hand…

Here are my ¢2 though: In the very beginning we all have established that a pony bottle is NOT I repeat is not a device that is geared towards providing an additional few cubic feet of air to the out of air diver. NOT! So what’s with all the arguing and “the long faces mon”? A pony tank is an effective substitute solution to a redundant air supply for an unlikely event of catastrophic demand valve failures. Yes they are unlikely, regulators these days are incredibly well built and given a proper maintenance and care will serve trouble-free for many years.​

In my previous life I was a trained as a commercial aircraft pilot and did quite a bit of study and research into advanced aircraft systems and crew and cockpit management. So in most aircraft, essential and advanced systems are designed with a triple (or sometimes even a quadruple) redundancy. For example Airbus 320 series has three hydraulic systems (blue, yellow, and green) plus a mechanically actuated one with a ram air turbine for a total electrical failure or double engine shutdown… So redundancy for regulators and tanks is necessary. Whthre or not it is suitable for “just-certified” divers/ according to my instructor and lds operator: YES, but with proper training and attitude.



Also I’ve learned that aircraft crew resource management and diving resource management is quite similar. One main rule for a pilot and it applies to a diver is: Think not one step ahead but three (again tipple redundancy). That means that:

Step 1. Use your primary stage 2​

Step 2. Use octopus if primary stage 2 fails
Step 2a. Use pony if primary stage 2 fails or got to step 3
Step 3. Use Pony if Primary Stage 1 and Octopus both fail

​

There are many variations of this but none of them involve, at least in my mind, running out of air. Correct me if i am wrong... I am not proud and willing to learn.


What does any of this have to do with watching your gauges? Nothing!!!

In some cases a pony may be utilized as an additional air supply for an out of air situation. One comes to mind where a diver runs low on air while trying to escape a shark or fighting a giant squid or whatever (I am being facetious of course) and utilizes a pony to save his bum and get safe to the surface. Again this all comes back to diver’s attitude towards this activity. If a person is incapable of managing his air supply this does not mean he/she is a bad person. This means that he/she needs additional training or needs to be stabbed with a dive knife with a serrated edge before he kills himself or anyone else around him. Make your choice for every individual occurrence.​

On the serious side though, here in the NYC and NJ, many dive boat operators will not even let you on board if don’t have a pony or a set of doubles… Also I’ve spoken to my instructor and LDS owner a few times about ponies and both are convinced that a pony is best investment I diver could make before training for and purchasing a set of doubles. What is a time that spent between a person goes from diving with a single tank + pony to diving doubles, in many cases five to ten years. I tend to believe the both guys because between the two of them they have about 65 years of technical and rec diving experience, been on Doria a few times, dove in the US Navy, and are both still alive and kicking hard. Can they read their gauges you bet your arse they can.

 

[lswaters]

My local, 100 miles away dive shop, having gotten over the shock that I wanted to investigate a pony bottle, is now getting rather enthusiastic about helping me outfit it. I've calculated my surface air consumption over my last 20 dives, and decided that for a 130' dive, beathing hard, and plenty of time for a 3-5 min stop at 15', a 30 cf bottle will do just fine. They suggested that I consider making this a NITROX bottle. Could I get some opinions on that? I know it basically eliminates flying with the thing, but what about the physics considerations, wherever I am able to use it? In switching to nitrox from air at 130 feet, N2 partial pressure is lower, will the faster outgassing of N2 cause problems? Especially if you are a little bit upset at the time?

 

[grf88]

They suggested that I consider making this a NITROX bottle. Could I get some opinions on that? I know it basically eliminates flying with the thing, but what about the physics considerations, wherever I am able to use it? In switching to nitrox from air at 130 feet, N2 partial pressure is lower, will the faster outgassing of N2 cause problems? Especially if you are a little bit upset at the time?

What reasoning for this did they give? The pony is a redundant backup and if it is necessary to use it the dive is over. Why complicate it and have a gas that could turn out to be unsuitable when you really need it. There might be some benefit to have some Helium in the mix to help keep the head clear but this would require the appropriate training.

 

[MikeFerrara]

What reasoning for this did they give? The pony is a redundant backup and if it is necessary to use it the dive is over. Why complicate it and have a gas that could turn out to be unsuitable when you really need it. There might be some benefit to have some Helium in the mix to help keep the head clear but this would require the appropriate training.

Not there's a thought. Trimix pony bottles. If you get yourself in trouble because you were narced, you can switch to the trimix pony bottle, clear your head and figure a way out of the mess. Perfect for the deep air single tank diver.

 

[lswaters]

He said that he saw a nitrox pony on an organized dive trip he had been on once somewhere. No other reason than that...
I do often dive Nitrox on as deep a dive as we can go on around here - 80 feet at altitude, and also wonder if the sudden switch to pony air would cause a problem. Thanks!

 

[MikeFerrara]

He said that he saw a nitrox pony on an organized dive trip he had been on once somewhere. No other reason than that...
I do often dive Nitrox on as deep a dive as we can go on around here - 80 feet at altitude, and also wonder if the sudden switch to pony air would cause a problem. Thanks!

Switching from nitrox to air at 80 ft isn't a problem except that your computer or table calculations are assuming that you are ascending on nitrox.

I don't use a pony bottle but if I did, I would have it filled with the same gas that I had in my main tank. A richer mix is ok as long as you can be sure that you won't be using it below the mod for that mix.