Poor Students, or Poor instructors?

[Drew Sailbum]

Warren,

I think you missed my point entirely. :banging:

Lost Yooper wrote:
For this reason alone, I think the agencies incur a great deal of responsibility for allowing such easy and low standards.
and
I continue to hammer home that it is not in the best finacial interest of the agencies (most agencies), instructors, or the industry as a whole to raise their standards.

Friggincold wrote:
If industry standards were raised, then the training agencies loose big time, they do nothing more than sell books and teaching materials that's how they make their money. The agencies set the standards for themselves . I believe some of the agencies put out the minimum defensible in court standards.

Bob wrote:
we can't save people from themselves, but the standards for obtaining a card should be more stringent.

The issues you protest in your response are largely issues of whether existing standards are adhered to, not the adequacy of those standards. As I stated, I believe that the standards are "about right."

As already discussed, SDI (the recreational end of TDI) teaches reliance on dive computers :stupid:, not tables for dive planning. It is a different way to plan a dive (and not the way I would do it) but that does not necessarily mean it is an invalid way for a beginner to plan a dive.

I would argue that a beginner should be taught dive planning as a part of an open water certification, but whether that is computer planning, dive tables, or even PADI's The Wheel makes little difference in my opinion. And if the diver is unable to plan the dive, then he/she should not receive a certification.


And for the next shocker... buddy breathing (sharing a single second stage regulator) has fallen out of favor by several certifying agencies. It is not a required skill in PADI's standards :crazyeyes:, and I am aware that some other agencies do not require this either. In reality, buddy breathing is necessary only if: 1) one diver in a buddy pair runs out of air, and 2) either the other buddy has a failure of one his two regulators, or that buddy is diving a set up with only one regulator.

So long as we are teaching alternate air breathing techniques, why not also teach BC breathing? :bonk: Yep, that air in your BC may be good for a couple breaths, but there is no way I would teach that to a new diver! Remember that the skill to be taught is the use of alternate air sources. Whether the method taught is octopus breathing or buddy breathing is not the point.

Yes. Mask clearing is a required skill, but if the diver is unable to accomplish that skill, then the failure is in complying with existing standards. Such a diver should not be certified, and the standard is right again.

The only real way any diver will gain experience is by diving. Whether that experience should be gained diving with an instructor before certification or afterwards seems to be the question.


Finally, one thing to try when you begin teaching is to ask each and every student to rate his/her own performance. Students are generally much harsher on themselves than you would be and this exercise makes them think about the strength of their own skills. It also gives you insight into skills which you may need to focus more attention on.

Off :box: now.

 

[Liquid]

Havent read all the answers, but here's my piece-

Incident #1) Not enough data to judge the matter. Probobly the diver wasn't to bright (everything about safety stops is in the book that he was suposed to read) and the instructor as well (didn't emphasize the matter enough).

Incident #2) 100% bad instructing! there's absolutly no reason to stand on the reef, or for that matter, if it isn't the first open water dive, not to touch bottom at all. Just one remark about it-Dont "Hammer" instructors infront of anyone. aspecially their students. Take the guy aside and explain what he did wrong calmly.

Incident #3) despite the fact you know the instructor to be a good one, I'd take my bet as he didn't give to much of a course in this case, as 2 people not knowing about it is just to much of a coincidence.

And last thing- YES people just tend to prove darvin's theory every day of the week... I can't begin to tell you of all the darvinist students I had...

 

[hphobbie@aol.com]

Originally posted by VTWarrenG
Drew,

We were suggesting that reading tables, using computers, planning dives, clearing masks, doing safety stops, buddy breathing, and other tasks (all of which are decidedly necessary to establish a basic level of safety) should be taught thoroughly in OW.

- Warren

well these topics are all in PADI OW course if the standards are followed (except single reg buddy breathing) ... if the instructor is worth a darn these are covered well and in-depth in classroom, pool and OW, and students are proficient, at least then. It is up to the students to aquire continuing education and to keep skills up to speed. Assuming that it is up to the agencies to do this is ridiculous and smacks of Big Brotherhood. Individual responsibility is a concept the USA has to embrace again, especially in risk sports where dying can be a consequence. Get your training, keep up your training, improve your skills, get and keep DAN insurance and just in case buy enough life insurance that your family can maintain their lifestyle if something , God forbid, happens to you.

But like was mentioned, OW is entry level. I equate it to a drivers license. You get the basics. Stay in your limits and grow slowly. You are not ready for the Indy 500 because you have a license. Nor are you ready for a drift, ice, altitude, dry suit, cave, etc dive because you are a certified diver.

Every one of my classes hears about the student that tried to go beyond his training and was found the next day in Devils Eye. 3 weeks after certification, 2nd dive after certification. After being told the week before they left to not go in the caves, you are not ready and have not been trained. 22 years later that still is on my mind.

Instructors and agencies are only a small part of the equation. The divers themselves need to be held accountable as well. Just because they have been certifoed for 10 years does not mean they have been diving for 10 years.

 

[sharpenu]

As far as chewing out instructors in front of students, I don't have any responsibility to protect the ego of ANY instructor who is acting in an unsafe or illegal manner. Touching or interfering with a reef is not only wrong, it is illegal. Just because I may embarass him is of no consequence to me. So, I pull him aside and tell him. He blows me off and doesn't mention it to his students. Now we have a whole class of new divers who will spend the rest of their diving lives stomping on and killing our reefs. Being a self governing sport, it is every diver's responsibilty to make sure we are all safe and respectful of our envirinment. Unless you WANT the state to regulate us?

 

[Liquid]

sharpenu-

Hammering the instructor will get you nothing. Do you really think he's going to change anything after being rudely "Hammered" infront of his students?
What he'd do is make fun of you the minuet you turn your back and tell his students you don't know ****. And the students-Being HIS students will take what he says as truth (It's a fact. That's why bad instructors make bad divers). Generaly- Hammering on someone, dosen't matter who, infront of the people he is incharge of is of no good. Say the students lost faith in their instructor-than what? Some may quit the sport, others will lose their self confidence, as they understand the guy that teaches them dosen't know ****, and therfore so do they. Imagine a commander in the army being chewed infront of his subordinates, than later they have to go to combat with him (ok, bad example, but you get the message). And last thing here-You are not an instructor, you may not be aware of things that instructors are, and therefore you do not have the moral right (in my opinion) to lecture him this way. Taking him aside, and explaining things calmly will get much better results. I had an incident once, where my boss hammered me infront of my class, in a matter that didnt involve diving (I didn't park the car right). It was very embarrasing, and it was hard to get the faith of students to the level it was before.

And about what you said regarding law regulating diving- Actualy, I come from the only country in the world (or at least the first) to regulate diving, since the late 70's. Actualy, we'r quite proud of it here. Read my threads regarding it( can't remeber the name). I can't find anything wrong with it. It makes sure all of the instructors are up to minimal standards, it regulates the matters of certifing agencys and much more. What's so badwith it?

 

[The Chairman]

The items mentioned earlier are mostly PART of the standards taught by the dive industry. They should not be blamed for instructors missing them or students forgetting them. PADI requires that on any test a student get 70% of it right. The instructor then will verbally explain the wrong answers, but then the student has to convince the instructor of their own personal understanding of the answers. I know for a fact, that some questions could be answered differently and still be correct, but PADI wants PADI's answer.

I have to agree with Liquid about "hammering" anyone, including instructors in public. It is usually counter productive. Inform the instructor of their error, and then ask them to inform his class of what is correct. Most instructors want to do what is right. Give them a chance, and you will be surprised. And you won't hear sniping about "eco-terrorists" later on.

Finally, students can be plain dense! They can get all of the skills done correctly, answer a test 100% and still they will make mistakes when on their own. This is why I like to see them do AOW right away. It gives them more time with their instructor and gives the instructor a little more jingle to make their time worthwhile. A good AOW course will identify "missed" skills and take corrective action. Will all AOW students say they know what a 3 minute safety stop is? Possibly not, but I bet the percentage improves with the extra training.

 

[chuckrt]

This is a good thread and very good opinions thru out, I would like to explain how my LDS works s they do not push students out the door as fast as possible.

My affiliation is SSI and I do not no what their requirements were but all the tests I took were 80% pass. WE were drilled on the tables and given extra practice problems besides the ones in our manual, we were encouraged to ask for help between the classes if needed. In our pool work if you didn't feel ready or they felt you were not ready you could add time on at NO EXTRA cost.

I believe that that is the reason there is a very high percentage of people that keep returning there for local dives and equip. purchases. They also do not push people to get c-cards just to have the cards.

chuckrt

 

[Lost Yooper]

I tend to agree with some of the responses hear that are basically saying the standards are there. However, I think the problem lies in the time spent on the most important skills (buddy skills, air management, buoyancy control). There seems to be a lot of time wasted on less important things (taking gear off underwater, emergency swimming ascents, snorkling) and not enough on more important stuff. I can really only speak about PADI standards, and I'm sure individual instructors concentrate on different things. However, as we're all seeing on charters and such, newer students are simply not proficient in the most important skills (without which can directly cause their death or serious injury).

I'm not exactly saying that the "less important things" I mentioned above shouldn't be covered, but if you're going to try and cram OW in four dives, then I think more emphasis should be placed on more important skills. I think more emphasis should be placed on those skills that will keep you out of trouble in the first place -- buoyancy control, buddy skills, air managment, mask removal/retrieval, alt. air breathing, etc.

I think a great deal of good could be done by doubling or tripling the number of OW dives required for OW classes to ensure all of the students are proficient in the most important skills. Also, there should be some sort of incentive for instructors to flunk students who just can't do it safely. Unfortunately, doing anything to change these type of things will effect the profits.

I don't want to see federal/state regulation as they have shown their ineptitude on most everything they get their hands on. The only real solution is to increase in-water training time, concentrate more on the most important skills, and place safety above profits -- good luck. If this means fewer people will be able to afford diving, then so be it. If it means more people will flunk out (or be unqualified in the first place), then so be it.

It still comes back to money.

Mike

 

[sharpenu]

Ok, next time, if you prefer, I can just pick up my cell and dial *FMP and have the marine patrol waiting to arrest him when we get back to the dock? I think that instructors are NOT Gods. Some may think they are, but they are mistaken. The attitude that I can't question someone because they are an instructor and I am not sounds as if I should somehow not question my "betters". First, I was chewing him out on a subject that has nothing to do with diving. Second, I don't care WHO you are. If you are wrong, you are wrong. I have no "moral", legal or other responsibility to ANY instructor from any agency.

And, BTW, next time I DO call the FMP and I told him so. We have enough problems with reefs dying and bleaching around here without divers ruining the very thing they are there to enjoy. I saw some complaints about stripping historical wrecks on the other thread. How is that any different? What about the instructor I saw telling his student to scrape the eggs off of the lobster he just brought up so he can keep it? I guess I can't question him in public, either?

 

[tombiowami]

I tend to agree with sharpenu. I don't really see how a dive instructor could not know that standing on a reef is bad. If my instructor got dressed down in front of me, I would definitely be looking into the issue later on for my own facts.

I would doubt an instructor who did that would really care though, so the students should be made aware.

There is definitely conflict of interest there in the dive shop, but that exists in many businesses, granted this one can be life threatening but so can many others such as boating, rock climbing, even general out door camping can get you in trouble quick depending on the area, getting lost, etc.

If I am not mistaken my Naui take was that this gives one the "certification to learn" or something like that, not teaches complete diving. Also I think it taught 60' max depth at conditions trained in. For me this was a pool and a quarry.

I have conflicting parts of wanting better divers but also promoting capitalism.

My buddy and me always comment, Murphy's Law or Darwins. Most of the divers spoken of are Darwin divers. The sport has been made so safe lately people do not give it the respect it deserves. Many times all does go well until an unforseen crisis happens.

Tommy