Primary or alternate donate poll

[KenGordon]

Is AS "air sharing"? What does it mean for it to be a failure? Do all air sharing incidents get reported? I'm not in the UK, but it never occurred to me to report my buddy's OOA incident anywhere but here. Despite our initial struggles to free the octo, I'd call our air sharing a success. Are you saying most people who try to share air in a real emergency don't make it?

Failures included anything that was not an effective provision of an alternative source of gas. That led to some fatalities, a few somewhat hurt people and some unhurt people. There were about 180 incidents over 5 or 10 years. I’d have to look on my proper computer to find the summary given by BSAC, if was on a now closed forum.

BSAC members are supposed to report incidents, they end up in an annual report and some analysis is done. Usually the conclusion is that people should dive as trained and follow the rules, recently it has brought IPO more attention.

If you don’t have a system to track how training turns out, how do you know whether the training is effective?

 

[VE7DAC]

You will die if you use split fins, donchaknow. They are the absolute worst entanglement risk known to mankind.

Obviously I'm joking. It always amuses me that people say that split fins are an entanglement hazard. Can't the same be said of the posts where straps/bungees connect to the fin? I don't see anyone advising that tech divers switch to full-foot fins to reduce that risk.

The only fins I've ever seen that are a legitimate entanglement hazard are my girlfriend's.

They're these ones:Shot FX

When swimming through kelp, the pointed section of the blade (the coloured protrusion next to the spring strap attachment point) is incredibly good at catching kelp stalks that are less than 1cm in diameter. Cave line would absolutely get caught in there as well. I've taken to swimming behind her when we dive in bull kelp, since it's a lot easier for me to unhook her than for her to do it herself.

 

[Esprise Me]

Failures included anything that was not an effective provision of an alternative source of gas. That led to some fatalities, a few somewhat hurt people and some unhurt people. There were about 180 incidents over 5 or 10 years. I’d have to look on my proper computer to find the summary given by BSAC, if was on a now closed forum.

BSAC members are supposed to report incidents, they end up in an annual report and some analysis is done. Usually the conclusion is that people should dive as trained and follow the rules, recently it has brought IPO more attention.

If you don’t have a system to track how training turns out, how do you know whether the training is effective?

So if two people struggle to free the octo but eventually get it out and both breathe off that tank as they slowly ascend, that's a success, but if they give up and do a CESA, even if they survive that's a failure? That makes sense; just trying to understand. I like the idea of collecting this info, but I'm curious how many minor incidents might go unreported.

 

[Ayisha]

...butt and shoulder dumps are usually too coarse for maintaining neutral on ascent...

You just need to refine your movement to just a slight pull of the string of the rear dump. Some agencies primarily use the rear dump to maintain neutral for the descent and ascent. At first, people tend to pull too much, and then over-compensate with the inflator until they get the hang of ever-so-slight pulls. With practice throughout dives and in S-drills, hopefully it pays off in a real low- or out-of-air situation when it becomes second nature.

 

[rsingler]

With practice throughout dives and in S-drills, hopefully it pays off in a real low- or out-of-air situation when it becomes second nature.

That's really the crux of the matter, isn't it? Any competent diver can make any reasonable equipment setup work in an emergency with appropriate training and practice.
Heck! Notwithstanding my comments above, I even took a Scubapro Go bcd and an Atomic SS1 to Bonaire 4 years ago for a lightweight travel rig.
Others have pointed out to me in PM's that I'm incorrect about how a shoulder dump can be used with precision. I accept that.
What do we advise our Recreational brethren? Do we accept that "primary donate is just a Scubaboard thing!"?
I don't. I started with an Air2 and have changed to a necklaced octo. I want the "occasional divers" to hear why, and decide for themselves. IMO, diving with an Air2 as an occasional diver is an unacceptable increase in task loading in an emergency.

 

[Diving Dubai]

The one big issue for LH primary donate with Rec diving, is the assumption that the receiver (victim), will once having been given a working air source, remain calm and make a controlled ascent with the donor, not requiring any positive physical contact

If however the receiver can't do that, then you need to remain in physical contact, to provide reassurance, and maintain control, in which case a overly long hose is a waste of time (IMO 40" with a swivel) is optimum

Trust me, having an experienced diver on you long hose suddenly lose it, then bolt is a real PITA when they're at the max extension of you hose. Even more so when you're reef hook is still attached which had been stabilizing you both in current. Ask me how I know.

People make irrational decisions under pressure

 

[Neilwood]

That's really the crux of the matter, isn't it? Any competent diver can make any reasonable equipment setup work in an emergency with appropriate training and practice.
Heck! Notwithstanding my comments above, I even took a Scubapro Go bcd and an Atomic SS1 to Bonaire 4 years ago for a lightweight travel rig.
Others have pointed out to me in PM's that I'm incorrect about how a shoulder dump can be used with precision. I accept that.
What do we advise our Recreational brethren? Do we accept that "primary donate is just a Scubaboard thing!"?
I don't. I started with an Air2 and have changed to a necklaced octo. I want the "occasional divers" to hear why, and decide for themselves. IMO, diving with an Air2 as an occasional diver is an unacceptable increase in task loading in an emergency.

Exactly - each system has advantages and disadvantages. The problem with all of them is lack of training & practise.

If you have a "traditional" rig and don't practise there is a good chance it will all go wrong in an emergency.
If you have a long hose and don't practise there is a good chance it will all go wrong in an emergency.
If you have a pony and don't practise there is a good chance it will all go wrong in an emergency.
If you have an Air2 or similar and don't practise there is a hell of a good chance of it all going wrong in an emergency.

 

[rongoodman]

I was taught to donate the primary, because it worked regardless of gear configuration. It appears that did not take into consideration a full-face mask, but otherwise, I still think it is the most universally-applicable donation method.

BSAC came to the opposite conclusion and advocates secondary take, although I think their concern was more with rebreathers than full-face masks. It's led to some wonderful arguments over the years on the UK boards.

 

[Diving Dubai]

The problem with all of them is lack of training & practice.

While I don't disagree, the other issue is that even if you prepare and practice - unless you're lucking divign with the same buddy or team, then you've no idea how the receiver will behave or react (or indeed yourself in a real situation)

On Rescue course I try hard to make things as realistic and "unexpected" but there are limits with standards and the fact the students know they're on a course and safe

Then when they finish 90% forget it all *sigh*

 

[Fastmarc]

One reason I moved to primary donate bungee necklace was streamlining. After moving over to BP/W and feeling the difference it made with so much less around me, I just wanted to tidy up my hoses. If I was still using a jacket BC, it's unlikely I would have changed to primary donate as that tidying up of hoses wouldn't have made an impact where streamlining is concerned.
The other reason was that I considered that the slightly longer hose (in my case, 40") would be beneficial to have a OOA diver on. In a traditional setup you could make the alternate longer to accomplish this, but this would result in more hosing being 'out there' when stowed.
Though primary donate is now my preferred setup, I do not think it is really any better than the traditional setup once you have secured the secondary, know where it is and it's visible. With almost 200 dives with the traditional, I've never had my secondary come loose for any reason out of the water or in and it was easy for anyone to take with a little tug, so ensuring your secondary is secure should be super easy, barely an inconvenience.

Like others have said above, choose a system and know how to use it.
This of course is just my thoughts as a purely rec diver who has never had to donate to an OOA diver.