Question about “balanced rigs” and having all ballast unditchable

[lowviz]

...//... The possible problems start when the lead dwindles to less than the air, or ditchable vs trim.

Moving target.

Lead starts out just enough, gets heavier with gas use.

Trim? Really...

 

[Lorenzoid]

Brendon's sounds like a reasonable approach to me, but if you're only carrying, say, 6 lbs. of gas in an Al80, will ditching 6 lbs. of lead really make it THAT much easier to swim to the surface than leaving the 6 lbs. in place? I can swim up 6 lbs., even 8 lbs. I have a Mako rubber belt that I use when I do need a significant amount of lead, but I almost don't want to bother putting as little as 6 lbs. on a belt, where it's not optimal for trim. As I THINK I recall being taught, it doesn't matter whether that 6 lbs. is ditchable or not--you're still "balanced" if you can swim it up.

 

[MichaelMc]

Moving target.

Lead starts out just enough, gets heavier with gas use.

Trim? Really...

Hmm? On the lead, all I’m saying is that if the tank is a heavy HP steel, min safe ballast may already be 0.

Maybe it shouldn’t be in that case. Edit: meaning if your cu. ft. of air can be done with a tank that allows ditchable, maybe you should not be doing it with a tank that leaves no ditchable.

 

[lowviz]

...//... maybe you should not be doing it with a tank that leaves no ditchable.

Such is the issue with many coldwater/drysuit rigs. We deal with it as best we can...

 

[RainPilot]

I use these Velcro pockets for distribution of ballast

trim pockets for backplate | DTD | DTD

I have not had any issues putting them on jacket shoulder straps, waist belts etc.

I find them pretty handy for moving weight around on a student for trim as well. They almost always end up in ditchable positions as well.

 

[MichaelMc]

Such is the issue with many coldwater/drysuit rigs. We deal with it as best we can...

Yeah, if a diver's environment and type of diving (cold, tech, deco) pushes them over the 0 non-equipment ballast line for most of their diving, and they are proficient there, being strict about being on the ditchable part of the line when ever absolutely possible (slightly warmer, 20 fewer cu. ft. of air, etc.) may not make as much sense. But they should be cautious when talking with divers whose environment allows them to be well on the ditchable is easily possible side of the line. Or particularly if they themselves are diving well over onto the ditchable is easily possible side, but without ditchable themselves.

 

[MichaelMc]

I use these Velcro pockets for distribution of ballast
View attachment 466471


trim pockets for backplate | DTD | DTD

I have not had any issues putting them on jacket shoulder straps, waist belts etc.

I find them pretty handy for moving weight around on a student for trim as well. They almost always end up in ditchable positions as well.

A challenge I saw with that model is the corner holes. I was unsure about trusting small 1 lb. non block weights to them, (or 1/2 lb. in each if you get finicky) . I've been using the DGX 2-3 lb. trim pockets DGX Trim Weight Pocket (each) as they close with no little open holes, but they need to be threaded.... Maybe I'll try those as well, non threaded is very nice! Thanks!

 

[lowviz]

Yeah, if a diver's environment and type of diving (cold, tech, deco) pushes them over the 0 non-equipment ballast line for most of their diving, and they are proficient there, being strict about being on the ditchable part of the line when ever absolutely possible (slightly warmer, 20 fewer cu. ft. of air, etc.) may not make as much sense. But they should be cautious when talking with divers whose environment allows them to be well on the ditchable is easily possible side of the line. ...//...

Point taken.

Yes, I've heard that such divers do actually exist in real life.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I don't think that is the case necessarily. For example, what is "properly weighted" when diving big double steel tanks and a super thick wetsuit? A lot of lead will be needed to keep that big wetsuit neutral when your tanks are near empty at a shallow stop. However, if you have to swim up from depth, with full tanks, you are going to have to drop some lead to be able to swim it up. Are you still going to be able to keep a shallow stop after you drop all that lead? If not, then you could still be "properly weighted", because you are not overweighted and do have ditchable weight, but would not have a "balanced rig" because now you can't keep a stop.

This is the basic forum so talking about big steel doubles in a thick wetsuit is somewhat inapropriate here I think and should be discussed elsewhere.
I’m talking about single tank recreational diving where I have read and have also seen divers who rally in support of setting up their rigs so that they have no ditchable ballast. I’m assuming the reason for this is to streamline the rig, possibly make the rig trim out better, not have a weightbelt which to some can be seen as a failure point or just annoying, and to not have trim pockets on a waist strap because that too can be considered annoying.
When I read the term “balanced rig”, I’m thinking it as the rig is an all in one unit including all the necessary ballast. Whether or not any of that ballast is ditchable is not really my point, my specific question is about the advocation of NO ditchable ballast as an end goal all attached to the rig.
I have seen and known (and dived with a few) DIR divers over the years and all of them seemed to have all their ballast set up on the rig in a fixed non ditchable fashion. I just chalked it up to ditchable weight being a potential failure point, and in a cave if you are properly weighted (all on your rig) have a drysuit for redundant buoyancy, then who cares if you don’t have any ditchable weight because you’ll never be dumping it anyway. Why would you? So you can be pinned to the ceiling? A weightbelt would be just one more unnecessary thing that doesn’t need to be there, I get that.
My concern is more pointed towards the basic recreational diver who reads this stuff and figures they need to set themselves up like the hotshots without fully understanding proper weighting.
I get people all the time emailing me about plates wanting to know about how to attach more weight so they can lose the weighbelt, side pockets, etc. They hear about others who load all their weight onto the rig, ditchable or not (mostly not) and want to do the same, and it’s concerning me.

 

[Colliam7]

This is the basic forum so talking about big steel doubles in a thick wetsuit is somewhat inapropriate here I think and should be discussed elsewhere.

I agree. I think that the spirit of your original question related primarily to single cylinder, recreational diving.