Question about learning deco procedures

[KenGordon]

Are there tools that let you do a formal dive plan of an accelerated deco dive (with all that that implies) using a Zoop? You can plan out a dive where you go into deco, do gas switches, calculate amount of each gas required, etc., and then execute that exact dive on the Zoop?

So it is only technical if there are gas switched now?

It is a single gas computer. You can do all the plans for that gas. That is what DM5 is for. You can even plan another dive given the one you did already today, based off the actual log of the first one. This of course requires significant pain to the fingers and a laptop where it might get wet.

 

[leadduck]

For example the IANTD Advanced Nitrox course is CMAS Nitrox Confirmée. IANTD applied for and got CMAS recognition (I am not sure all of which courses - I only know this one as I have it..)

I live in the UK and one could argue that a lot of deco training here is by BSAC (which follows the 2star route of including some deco in intermediary training). However BSAC are not CMAS members. Do you count this as "in" as per your comment or equivalent which is factually correct?

I think we are pretty much in agreement and splitting hairs to be honest. (Par for the course in our hobby )

Correct BSAC is not part of CMAS. BSAC’s training meets the ISO Standards which countries are starting to require compliance with. PADI courses are ISO accredited.

IIRC, IANTD was member of the CMAS technical committee (is it still?) but does not follow CMAS standards nor do they issue CMAS brevets. BSAC was a founding member of CMAS but got expelled in 1997.

 

[boulderjohn]

I believe the following sequence of replies will be helpful for this thread. Please read it as a sequence leading to a conclusion.

Decompression diving was once taught in open water classes. I learned to plan deco dives to 190 feet in my OW course in 1981.

In the first decades of dive training, everyone used the U.S. Navy air tables for dive planning. Those tables included decompression, so decompression had to be taught.

The terms "technical" and "recreational" are meaningless. As a community we often use them as shorthand but really they mean nothing. Marketing created the idea of "technical" diving to persuade people to buy more training and equipment.

The problem with the U.S. Navy tables was that they used the 120 minute compartment to guide surface intervals, leading to HUGE surface intervals that interfered with planning for 2-tank dives. PADI sponsored research on dives that did not include mandatory decompression and determined that the 60 minute compartment could safely be used, which dramatically shortened surface intervals. They created a set of tables designed to facilitate the kind of diving done by the overwhelming majority of sport divers, and they called it the Recreational Dive Planner. It did not include decompression. As a result, the term "recreational" became associated with no stop diving. After that, other agencies made their own tables that were still based on the U.S. Navy tables but did not include decompression. The concept of technical diving developed separately, and it involves more than just doing decompression.

Every dive is a decompression dive. That is a fact.

Not exactly.

All dives do involve decompression, but not all dives require mandatory decompression stops. In modern usage, the phrase "decompression dive" has taken on a special meaning, and when people use that term, they are specifically referring to dives that require mandatory decompression stops. When a combination of words takes on a specific meaning in common usage, then that meaning may be different from the meaning of the individual words taken separately, as is true in idiomatic terms in all languages. In modern scuba discussions, "recreational dive" means a dive with no mandatory decompression stops, which is different from a "decompression dive," which means a dive with mandatory decompression stops. Picking apart the words and quibbling with the common use of the phrase would be the same as saying the common English question "What's up?" can only refer to things like airplanes and clouds.

 

[Gareth J]

boulderjohn.

Whilst i don't really want to start a ping pong of posts. I think Chrisch post was accurate, or at least the pieces in your reply.

Part of the issue is that Chrisch, was trained in the UK and Europe.
In the UK, if he learnt with SSA, or BSAC, we teach staged decompression as part of the recreational diver training. As such, decompression diving is not really thought of as 'technical'. It is also true to say that the line between recreational and technical has blurred.
Probably, the easiest point in the UK to determine where you transition from recreational diving to technical diving, would be if you start to do accelerated decompression.

We are also taught, all dives are decompression dives, irrespective of no-stop or staged decompression.
Any change to a shallower depth, by definition, means you will start to decompress. Once on the surface after a dive, you continue to decompress, until the inert gas in your system balances with the ambient pressure.

It might be that we are a bit more literal than you guys the other side of the pond .

It might explain why I get so confused why charter boats in the USA seem to think its safer to get out of the water bang on the last minute of the allowable NDL time, rather than chuck an extra 5 minutes of stops onto the dive and get out 5 minutes late. For me, running to the edge of the NDL has a much higher perceived risk than moving up to the next column on the table and doing the required staged decompression stop.

Gareth

 

[sigxbill]

In the UK, if he learnt with SSA, or BSAC, we teach staged decompression as part of the recreational diver training.

What is the first BSAC level where "Staged Decompression" is taught?

 

[boulderjohn]

I am talking about terminology, not physics. Yes, all diving requires decompression of some sort during ascent. No question about it.

I am simply pointing out that for a huge portion of the dive community, when they use the phrase "recreational dive," they are referring to a dive that does not include mandatory decompression stops. For a huge portion of the dive community, when they use the phrase "decompression dive," they mean a dive that requires decompression stops. When enough people use a term to mean something and enough people understand what they mean when they do, then that is what the term means.

In Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet, Romeo tries to keep Tybalt and Mercutio from fighting, saying that the quarrel they are having is "nice." Students reading the play may wonder how a quarrel can be nice. Well, in Shakespeare's day, "nice" meant what we mean by "silly" today. If someone tells you that you are a nice person today, will you be insulted because centuries ago it would have meant you are silly?

 

[SJT1961]

I love it. BoulderJohn goes Shakespeare on the Brits!

 

[DanielRJones]

Only one I know of is GUE Rec 3. Teaches limited decompression, max of 15 min and a single deco bottle. Max depth 130'

Bsac Sports diver which is the second grade equivalent to AOW qualifies for 35m depth and any deco obligations from this dive but only using your backgas for deco

 

[DanielRJones]

What is the first BSAC level where "Staged Decompression" is taught?

Sports diver which is the 2nd level equivalent to AOW

 

[kelemvor]

Bsac Sports diver which is the second grade equivalent to AOW qualifies for 35m depth and any deco obligations from this dive but only using your backgas for deco

Interesting, so in some ways (deco) BSAC does more than AOW. In others (max depth) BSAC is less. Many us agencies have a max depth of 130' (43m) in regular open water courses, although they still include "deep diving" in AOW.

Personally, I'd say it's just different.