Read JJ's book - What's all the fuss about?

[H2Andy]

Bob made the exact right call: there's no excuse for personal attacks

 

[Blitz]

I had a bad incident with someone that was "DIR" up here. She was extremely rude. I had no idea what DIR was at the time, but she certainly let me know that my 14 years of diving-several of them as a combat diver in the Army (CDQC) were dangerous and that I had little to no idea what good, safe diving was. That instance was offensive. There is good and bad to everything. Is it wrong to take the good from one philosophy and combine it with another?

 

[TSandM]

There is no excuse for rudeness.

If someone sees something they don't like, they have a lot of options. They can strike up a conversation with the person and try to find out what kind of person they are, and whether they are open to input from somebody else. They can ignore what isn't critical, or they can refuse to dive with that person. I run into the same thing with riding. But there is no reason to be rude -- it almost never results in anything changing for the better. If you are going to influence someone at all, it's going to have to be done gently enough not to put the other person on the defensive. And sometimes you're just not going to have any effect anyway.

I personally think the training I got from GUE was excellent and well worth my time, effort and money. I personally think that many divers, particularly novices, would benefit from it. I have taken it upon myself to influence some close friends and family members (cough, cough) to head in that direction. But if somebody thinks what they are doing is just fine, then all I can do is decide whether that's somebody I want to go in the water with (or go back in the water with) or not.

Spending years and years in barns and watching people ride in ways that verged upon (when they weren't frankly) abusive has taught me to keep my mouth shut. Not many people want to know what I think . . . about anything. Luckily, I have BBs where the rest of you don't have a choice

 

[JohnL]

I recently read J.J.'s book too and enjoyed it. There was allot of useful info for someone like myself who is pretty new to diving and just getting into the "I think I have it figured out stage." I must have gotten the updated and edited version as there was nothing inflamatory that I read

In general it seems like the biggest "radical" ideas are that you need to develop your skills beyond the minimum required for what you are doing, practice those skills, and actually plan your dive. Not really far fetched concepts, but there seems to be resistance to doing that with allot of divers. I have had a few "rough" experiences starting out and most of them come back to the desire to rush into the water without much of a plan or discussion of what to do when the plan falls apart.

I am still at the point of working on the skills I have (or arguably don't) and getting comfortable(not uncomfortable...but feeling task loaded) in the water. When I get a bit more comfortable I look forward to taking DIR-F if I get the chance. Not saying it is the only way to be safe in the water...but it is one system that seems to work for many.

There seem to be allot of stories of rude or arogant DIR divers. Chances are they would be rude solo divers, golfers, or cyclists under different circumstances.

Back to lurking....

 

[Cacia]

I had the eye opening experience of suggesting brand X try and improve their manuals, so rudeness is now ..relative.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I had a bad incident with someone that was "DIR" up here. She was extremely rude. I had no idea what DIR was at the time, but she certainly let me know that my 14 years of diving-several of them as a combat diver in the Army (CDQC) were dangerous and that I had little to no idea what good, safe diving was. That instance was offensive.

LOL - bet I could even tell you who that was ...

Of the many DIR-trained divers in our area, the number of rude ones I've run across comprise a tiny minority ... and everyone pretty much knows who they are. You will find that to be the case in pretty much any recreational activity.

There is good and bad to everything. Is it wrong to take the good from one philosophy and combine it with another?

Nope ... most folks (including myself) who take Fundamentals do not practice DIR diving in its pure form ... they take what they want from the training and pretty much ignore the small stuff.

OK, so we can't call ourselves DIR ... but who cares about labels, really. If you derive benefit from the training ... if it makes you a better, safer diver, then it's all a net positive (to my concern) ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[daniel f aleman]

Sellective editing there Bob.

 

[DIR-Atlanta]

I had a bad incident with someone that was "DIR" up here. She was extremely rude. I had no idea what DIR was at the time, but she certainly let me know that my 14 years of diving-several of them as a combat diver in the Army (CDQC) were dangerous and that I had little to no idea what good, safe diving was.

That's unfortunate. Personally, I would think that your military diving experience would make you something of a "natural" with the DIR system. Everything about it is driven by the idea of team unity and putting aside one's personal agenda for the overall benefit of the team and its goals. This is a principle that (in my opinion) is not emphasized that well in a traditional dive training curriculum - in fact, in many cases the "traditional" curriculum engenders exactly the opposite type of attitude.

I think that people with a military or public safety (fire, police, etc) background probably understand the concept of true teamwork better than most folks, and would therefore more readily grasp the benefits of DIR.

But I digress ...

Regarding the issue of rudeness - the problems that I have seen with many recent DIR converts is that (1) they don't have the depth of knowledge of the system to fully understand it, or (2) they are not able to articulate the reasons "why we do things the way we do". I think a person really has to do a lot of diving in a lot of different situations to really appreciate the simple utility and flexibility of the DIR gear configuration. Most openwater divers who are just starting out with DIR can't really see the "endpoint" (rebreather dive carrying multiple stages and scooters) and in many cases are simply doing things by rote. When questioned about some philosophical point, they sometimes struggle with an explanation, and then just give up and resort to rudeness. Sometimes I think it happens more out of frustration with themselves than with other divers.

Of course, not everyone who takes a DIR-F course is eventually (or even necessarily) going to be using a rebreather. One of the major benefits of the system is that there is nothing that artificially limits your ability to move forward to those types of dives, other than your own goals and rate of progress as a diver. Everything builds on everything else to create a smooth progression from OW all the way to Rebreather Diver, if that's how far you want to go. In particular, the system is designed such that as you move through the curriculum, you only add equipment and procedures to your existing knowledge base - nothing ever has to be repurchased or relearned.

There is good and bad to everything. Is it wrong to take the good from one philosophy and combine it with another?

That depends entirely on the philosophy.

DIR is designed to ensure that everything about a dive will work together as a unit - gear, procedures, and personnel. It has been honed and refined over many years and thousands of dives, and represents the collective experience of divers who have been engaged in cutting edge exploration in some of the most challenging situations imagineable (some of whom paid for this knowledge with their lives). It is one of the finest examples of "gestalt" that I have ever seen, and in many cases, changing just one piece of it can have effects on the other pieces that are not terribly obvious at first glance.

I would not necessarily say that it's "wrong" to try and combine parts of DIR with other philosophies, but I definitely believe that it compromises the overall effectiveness of the system as a whole to try and do so. In many cases, it does this to such a degree that it creates a potentially unsafe situation for the diver.

Having said that, I don't think that every diver will (or even can) necessarily turn on DIR like a light. In my own case, I was first exposed to it (as the "Hogarthian" system) in 1994 when I started my cave training. It probably took me two full years before I finally "saw the light" (during which time I wasted a lot of money on some of the most horrific choices about gear that you could possibly imagine). I kept coming back to the elegant simplicity of the whole "DIR" thing, and finally concluded that it was the only way to go. It is unfortunate that so much emotion and drama has become attached to it.

So to answer your question, I don't think it's possible to combine DIR with other philosophies without reducing the overall effectiveness of it. However, if adding DIR elements to your style of diving makes sense to you, then I encourage you to do it. Over time you may find (as I did), that it just makes more and more sense to do things the "DIR way".

 

[Blitz]

Bob- You are probably right about who it is. I have talked to you and you have never said anything to me that even bordered on rude, arrogant or worse, pushy, so I know it isn't all of the DIR crowd.

DIR-ATL- You are right, we were taught to function at incredibly high levels as a team, but also how to think for ourselves in and emergency. I see myself as more of a Hogarthian diver than anything else; stripped down except for the essentials and then redundancy. Taskloading to a minumum to focus on the important stuff and keep your buddy within safe and easy reach so when you need them you can get to him/her.

I will always solo, I know that is against all of the tenants of many systems, but I make that as safe as I can and accept the rest of the risk.

Marc

 

[wedivebc]

Most experienced DIR divers have a lot to offer us non-DIR guys and I take as much as I can from their experience. For some reason though many divers with 30 dives and a fundies course seem to think they should be telling us how to be doing it right.
I must admit I am seeing less of it than before but it still gives DIR a bad name.