Redundant buoyancy in warm weather

[The Chairman]

Dan, first off a buoy on a wreck IS redundant buoyancy for any one. You can climb that bean pole right up to safety.

Secondly, the discussion is about non-balanced rigs. Your solution, and it's an elegant one, is to never dive a unbalanced rig. There are many of us who have no qualms about diving a unbalanced rig as long as we have redundant buoyancy. I would suggest that whether to dive or not dive an unbalanced rig is a topic for another thread. I want to read about solutions for when I do have a crapload of tanks weighing me down other than "don't do it".

 

[Kevrumbo]

Again, that doesn't sound like an appropriate solution to me. If you can't finish the dive under a modicum of control then it's a fail in my book. If I were you, I would be seeking a different, more robust solution and not getting all butt hurt that someone thinks you could do better.


Make up your mind. If your way was not the only correct way, just why did you deride those who do things differently so harshly? You posture, you boast and you unduly criticize from 15,000 miles away and you expect us to just take it because it's you? Again, I will have to call

:gans:
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It's a fashion of one in this thread. It's completely inappropriate and nothing but an appeal to authority by Kev trying to establish his street creds. He thinks that just because he's doing these dives in (gasp) Truk Lagoon, that we would all realize that he really must know what he's talking about. He even adds the condescending and harsh criticisms to give the allusion that he's a real playa and not someone to be trifled with. Simple braggadocio does not make someone right, no matter how arrogant they might be to think otherwise. It's kind of ironic that he feels free to dish out harsh criticism but can't accept any that is constructive.

And you've got nothing to offer objectively by a sham contemptuous rant above except by exposing your ignorance Pete. Period. End of Your Story & Shenanigans (from 15,000 miles away even).

Woof tickets Holmes! U be a playa hatah cuz I kin talk-the-talk & walk-the-walk. . .

Back to the topic: Redundant Buoyancy by Liftbag, as an option to double bladder wing is also taught by the TDI Instructor here in Truk (Manager Rob McGann at the Truk Lagoon Dive Center/Truk Stop Hotel). Maybe more GUE Instructors with JJ CCR's should come out here and learn how to utilize one for a loss of primary wing contingency, in addition to relying on their drysuits as well . . . (and leave their drysuits here too!)

 

[danvolker]

And you've got nothing to offer objectively by a sham contemptuous rant above except by exposing your ignorance on the topic Pete. Period. End of Your Story (from 15,000 miles away even).

Woof tickets Holmes! U be a playa hatah cuz I kin talk-the-talk & walk-the-walk. . .

Back to the topic: Redundant Buoyancy by Liftbag, as an option to double bladder wing is also taught by the TDI Instructor here in Truk (Manager Rob McGann at the Truk Lagoon Dive Center/Truk Stop Hotel). Maybe more GUE Instructors should come out here and learn how to utilize one for a loss of primary wing contingency, in addition to relying on their drysuits as well . . . (and leave their drysuits here too!)

I just have to say that taking a class on "how to get to the surface when your way to heavy to swim up---by an alternate flotation device.." is just too much like "Taking a class in how to chug a 5th of Jack Daniels and then Drive afterwards!!! It is too stupid to be considered, when it is so easy to NOT need to be pulled up by an ELEVATOR.

Sorry Pete...you like to call "shenanigans" when you think something smells bad.....this entire direction of agencies getting money to teach people how to drive drunk....I mean, to get off the bottom when they are 30 to 50 pounds too heavy ( or more)---this is wrong.... If I saw a drunk about to get into a car and drive, and you'd already told me he'd been warned not to drive--and that I should not say anything else---I'd have to say something anyway--I can't be silent when I see this level of wrong-doing in progress.

 

[The Chairman]

Redundant Buoyancy by Liftbag, as an option to double bladder wing is also taught by the TDI Instructor here in Truk

Then, perhaps a refresher is in order for you!

PS: thanks for not posting gratuitous run times in Truk. Progress is being made, folks!

I just have to say that taking a class on "how to get to the surface when your way to heavy to swim up---by an alternate flotation device.." is just too much like "Taking a class in how to chug a 5th of Jack Daniels and then Drive afterwards!!! It is too stupid to be considered, when it is so easy to NOT need to be pulled up by an ELEVATOR.

O rly? That's the put-down argument used against diving deep air. Don't get your put downs confuseled, Dan. Diving an unbalanced rig does not make anyone more narced. That's just silly to the extreme and is nothing but an alarmist argument and a red herring to boot. The question about differing ideologies deserves it's own vapid thread. I guess you get your very shenanigans call this time:

:gans:
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[danvolker]

Then, perhaps a refresher is in order for you!

PS: thanks for not posting gratuitous run times in Truk. Progress is being made, folks!

O rly? That's the put-down argument used against diving deep air. Don't get your put downs confuseled, Dan. Diving an unbalanced rig does not make anyone more narced. That's just silly to the extreme and is nothing but an alarmist argument and a red herring to boot. The question about differing ideologies deserves it's own vapid thread. I guess you get your very shenanigans call this time:

:gans:
​

Pete,
This would be fair if Kev had been pushing for black wings, and I had insisted they must be blue.
It would be less a differing ideology issue -- if it was one instructor insisting that all students have their alternate 2nd stage stuffed into one of those rubber mouth piece holders, and clipped to their BC ----while another diver-->you, argues that this is a dangerous practice, as an OOA diver will most likely NOT have time to get to this, or find this reg, in an emergency--this is not so much a differing ideology issue for most SB readers (I think) because on the face of it, most would see the clear and present DANGER issue that one side represents, while there is no danger on the other side.

I recognize many dive arguments that are just the differing ideology blathering....Both Deep air and Weighting so heavy you NEED redundant buoyancy are discussions where one side is for safety, the other is about mitigating foolish risks...

 

[tajkd]

Pete,
This would be fair if Kev had been pushing for black wings, and I had insisted they must be blue.
It would be less a differing ideology issue -- if it was one instructor insisting that all students have their alternate 2nd stage stuffed into one of those rubber mouth piece holders, and clipped to their BC ----while another diver-->you, argues that this is a dangerous practice, as an OOA diver will most likely NOT have time to get to this, or find this reg, in an emergency--this is not so much a differing ideology issue for most SB readers (I think) because on the face of it, most would see the clear and present DANGER issue that one side represents, while there is no danger on the other side.

I recognize many dive arguments that are just the differing ideology blathering....Both Deep air and Weighting so heavy you NEED redundant buoyancy are discussions where one side is for safety, the other is about mitigating foolish risks...

Wow. As exciting as this thread has been, it has circled around the drain a bit. It seems that the original question was on redundancy and it looks like all (3 of) the great experts on SB agree it should be a consideration. While opinions on using a drysuit for such in the tropics range from absurd to necessary, that's where the argument gets lost. RJP and I chimed in with our "we always love our drysuits" song and some others complained that "they don't need no stinkin drysuits".

Why is it necessary that there be only one option in diving, especially in this argument. I bring a lift bag on every dive. You could say that it represents triple redundancy. Why can't there be an answer that's right for the individual. Neither using the drysuit as backup bouyancy or the lift bag is dangerous to me. I can make the choice as can many other divers. Why is it always one right way? What did my drysuit ever do to you?

 

[The Chairman]

Both Deep air and Weighting so heavy you NEED redundant buoyancy are discussions where one side is for safety, the other is about mitigating foolish risks...

So let's get this straight. You believe that cave diving needs to be done only in aluminum cylinders? Anyone who dives an unbalanced rig in a cave is creating a foolish risk? Go ahead, I'll with hold playing the "S" word until I hear you out... but you know it's coming.

Why is it necessary that there be only one option in diving?

It's not. It's like a mechanic having only fractional tools because they don't "believe" metric tools or even worse, they force their tools to do a job better suited for another. You should see my tool box. Not only do I have fractional and metric sockets, but I also have 1/4", 3/8". 1/2" and even 3/4". You'll find chrome, impact, deep, medium, shallow and even flexible ones. I have adapters and even adapters for my adapters, extensions, flex joints, various styles of ratchets that would make most people's head swim. I just spent the last couple of hours taking Elena' Geo Tracker's intake manifold off to get to some leaky valve cover gaskets.
Juming Jehosophat, but I am glad that I believed in metric sockets and had such a vast array of sockets and such.

Here's a picture of my largest tool box:

 

[TSandM]

I think if you cave dive with big steels and don't have a plan for a wing failure, you have a higher risk tolerance than I do. I think most people will have a plan; what is argued is what the best plan IS. I don't like double-bladder wings, because I think they introduce more problems than they solve (although my Razor has one -- go figure). I LIKE the dry suit solution, because it improves thermal tolerance and gives you a truly redundant way to achieve some lift. Now, with sufficiently large tanks, it will be a bit of a thrash getting enough buoyancy out of your dry suit to get neutral, and still have any control in the water, but you can do it, and it beats crawling out of the cave. Cave diving profiles often involve enough in-water time to make the improved insulation of a dry suit desirable, even in relatively warm water.

In open water, I think the best solution is not to set yourself up to be that negative in the first place. And if you are doing a profile that really requires heavy steels in open water, your run times are going to be such that a dry suit may be nice, even in warm water.

 

[The Chairman]

I don't like double-bladder wings, because I think they introduce more problems than they solve (although my Razor has one -- go figure).

What actual problems has your Razor introduced? I mean real issues, not hypothetical ones. This is my second BCD with a dual bladder, the first being the infamous 100 pound OMS BWOD. So far, none of the hypothetical problems that were pontificated ad nauseum have ever materialized. I was wondering if you have, albeit reluctantly, found the same to be true.

 

[danvolker]

So let's get this straight. You believe that cave diving needs to be done only in aluminum cylinders? Anyone who dives an unbalanced rig in a cave is creating a foolish risk? Go ahead, I'll with hold playing the "S" word until I hear you out... but you know it's coming.

Pete...Pete...Pete......Mis-quoting is unbecoming....In earlier posts I clearly separated cave diving from ocean diving, and that Cave diving has different issues to consider...both with the buoyancy of fresh water, and in the form of Overhead Environment, and what the primary risks are in this separate form of overhead environment.


I also said that I have no interest in discussing Cave Diving....I was a spearfisherman when I first tried Cave diving.....I found the the absence of big schools, of big fish, appalling.
Now I shoot video.....and the past comes back to me all over again